In this episode, Ben and Sawyer discuss the importance of understanding fitness principles and staying flexible in your training approach. They share their experiences with experimenting—whether it’s incorporating more cardio, trying intermittent fasting, or exploring new activities like Ultimate Frisbee. Sawyer emphasizes the value of stepping outside rigid routines and feeling confident in making adjustments. They also highlight the benefits of good coaching and how it can empower individuals to train smarter. Tune in for practical insights and a fresh perspective on keeping fitness fun and sustainable!
Highlights from this episode:
- Experimenting with Fitness Approaches – the importance of staying open to new training methods
- Breaking Out of “Prep Jail” – sometimes it takes confidence to make changes
- Exploring New Activities – trying new physical pursuits is an exciting way to keep fitness engaging
- The Power of Good Coaching – work with coaches who teach principles, rather than strict protocols
Tune in for an honest, relatable chat that goes beyond the highlight reels and into the heart of what it means to connect authentically.
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Related Phrases:
how to break plateaus, cardio vs. weight training, intermittent fasting, how to stay motivated in fitness, strength training vs sports, how to avoid burnout, workout routine, fitness myths debunked
Transcript:
[Ben:]
Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Vegan Proteins and Muscles by Russell’s Radio. I’m Ben. And I’m Sawyer.
And this is episode 207. All right, Sawyer, we’re here in sunny San Diego. It’s been lovely getting to hang out with you.
I’ve been here for just over a day now. This is day two. Day two, because I flew in Friday night.
And how would you say the trip’s been so far at least? Surprisingly tiring. I don’t know why I’m so tired.
I’d say, I don’t know, 15,000, 20,000 steps. Yeah.
[Sawyer:]
We did a lot of walking yesterday.
[Ben:]
And we’ll probably do more later today. We did a hike this morning.
[Sawyer:]
True. We did Balboa Park and we did Mission Bay Park yesterday. And then what did we do for dinner again?
[Ben:]
We went to Encinitas.
[Sawyer:]
Oh yeah. Yeah, we did.
[Ben:]
I’m glad I remembered that name.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. We went there. We went to Modern Times Brewing.
Vegan brewery here, by the way.
[Ben:]
So cool that it’s not even necessarily advertised, but some of the places here, the menus are just fully vegan and people go and order drinks. And I’m assuming a lot of them don’t even know, but then they’re probably just like, oh sure, I’ll order something. And I think people are just more open-minded here as well too.
[Sawyer:]
It’s not like a turnoff, like as it would be in like maybe the Midwest or somewhere. No offense, Midwest, but you guys got a lot of catching up to do. But yeah, you’re right, man.
It’s cool being here and not having it be like a big deal. Like it’s just kind of like, you don’t feel different.
[Ben:]
And then we’re going to Tucson tomorrow, Tuesday, Sedona Wednesday, Phoenix Thursday. Busy, busy, busy.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah.
[Ben:]
A lot of stuff. And we’re both working while we’re here.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. It’s going to be interesting, but it’ll work.
[Ben:]
Hey, as long as we’re spending time together and doing things, then it’d be cool. I don’t think we’re people that need to have a bunch of stuff planned out. It’s kind of just the company that we hold, that we value in these experiences.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. And I mean, also like how often do you come into the Southwest? I want to make sure you see as much as you can.
So, you know, that’s the timeline we’re on, but I’m sure that you’ll be back. So it’s like, we don’t have to do everything. That would suck all the fun out of it anyway.
[Ben:]
Yeah, for sure. Anyway. Yeah.
I haven’t been really out to the desert. We were talking about that a little bit. Yeah.
[Sawyer:]
Speaking of sucking the fun out of things.
[Ben:]
Yeah.
[Sawyer:]
You want to talk about how to make fitness fun or how to fall in love with fitness again?
[Ben:]
Yeah. We didn’t really come up with necessarily a concrete title yet, but we’re basically going to be talking about today what to do when you find that your passion, your motivation for fitness is kind of waning because you’ll find as you go, everyone’s level of investment or inherent enjoyment goes through phases, right? You might not really love fitness at first and you might not ever truly love it.
It might just be something that you kind of do like brushing your teeth. It becomes a habit. But for us who are fitness professionals, the reason I think we decided to go into this career is, of course, we like helping people, but also we love doing it ourselves.
And that was kind of what started that drive to learn more. And I was talking to you about this, about how nothing will ever truly capture those first couple of years where everything is new and exciting and you’re going to the gym and you just can’t wait to do your workouts. And you’re like, oh, is this going to be the best split or like I’m trying this new kind of like macro breakdown.
And every little thing that we know in the grand scheme doesn’t really make a huge difference. But it’s fun to like try to see if there’s any kind of benefit to be gained from these little strategies. So it’s hard to kind of capture that magic.
And once that fades out, you might just find naturally you have times in your life where you’re more or less invested in it. But that doesn’t mean that you have to stop and you have to stagnate in your progress. You can keep moving forwards, even if it’s at a slower rate than you may have in the past.
And also, I think it can almost be strange to feel like you’re pulling back and you’re doing less, but still moving forward. Like sometimes we get in the habit of just doing so much all the time that when we pull back, even if compared to most people, we’re still doing a lot, it just feels like less than what we had done. And so it almost feels like we’re letting ourselves down.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. I have a lot of clients that, that struggle with that because they’ll have this time, like maybe it’s college where they had the most free time and they had the most like concern about their body. And so they were doing the most then.
And so they’re always trying to reach that bar forever after that. And I’m like, life is different for you now. Your goals are different.
Your body’s changed. Like, and not to say that you can’t accomplish great things, but you need to be able to factor those differences in because if you’re only comparing, like, I feel like we have a tendency to romanticize the past and be like, that was the best routine. That was when I felt the best, I need to do that exact same thing.
And so when you’re like that, and then you subsequently can’t implement the same things because you’re in a just different, really different place in life, people can get like this all or nothing mindset where they’re just kind of like, I don’t really want to, um, right. I can’t do that. And so it feels like a waste of time to even try.
Um, if I can’t do, you know, a hundred percent, you know, then it’s not worth it, but they could be getting damn good results at like 75% or, you know, even maybe even potentially even less depending on what they were doing.
[Ben:]
I feel like that’s why it’s so valuable to understand principles and not just have protocols like coaches who just give protocol calls.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah.
[Ben:]
It’s usually something that worked for them. And then they, yeah, it’s that to all of their clients and they don’t understand maybe why things are working or that there’s a variety of options for the people that they’re working with. And so people apply this to themselves too.
Hey, this protocol that I was using helped me just to use your example when I was in college and I lost 20 pounds or I was my leanest, I was in my fittest, I was in my best shape. Now you might be able to pick up on little hints and clues as to what might work for that person based on those periods. Like, oh, I actually find that condensing my eating window just generally tends to help me.
So you might be able to apply that, but maybe there are some other things there that just don’t make sense now. And understanding that it wasn’t anything magic about that system. It was just, it worked for you at that time.
[Sawyer:]
I think a lot of coaches or fitness professionals or people in general just start out with, they, whenever they have the time to invest, to like learn things, they’ll like learn a bunch in that certain time window or they’ll develop a preference and then, but they won’t bother to learn the principles behind like why it’s working. They’ll just know like, oh, when I was doing this, I was getting this. And I think it’s dangerous because you’re right.
Like there’s going to be reasons of why it works, but then if they don’t understand why, then they might be chasing something that is no longer going to work for them, like at least logistically. And so, but they think that’s the only way to get results. So they’ve attached, they’ve gone on to this idea, like this is the thing that’s the thing that’s gotten me results in the past and I need to be able to do this, but it’s incompatible with their life now.
And so even like inexperienced or maybe even just lazy fitness professionals will fall prey to that too, where they’ve done something for so long and it’s worked for a certain number of people. So they just think, oh, I need to mold everybody into that. But it’s really just like, they only have, you know, two of like the 50 or so tools or maybe, I don’t know how many tools there are, but, but they’ve got a fraction of how many tools they could have to use to help people instead of, you know, just trying to put everybody in the same box.
They could be saying, well, you do this over here and you do this over here and just help strategize better with the principles that they should know. And that’s the problem I think we were talking about yesterday was like, there’s no, the standards for the fitness industry are so low that you could be getting somebody who’s really advanced and knows a lot of these tools and the principles and can understand and can explain them to people like really simply and they can apply them to their lives right away. And then there’s people who don’t really understand the principles, but they just got good results because they like to work out a lot and they have all the free time that they have, you know?
And it’s hard to distinguish for the general consumer, like which is which, because like that person looks good and this person looks good and they have results with their clients and these guys have results with their clients. Of course, everybody’s showing their best clients, but how do you distinguish? You know what I mean?
Not that this is what this episode is about, but it can be really frustrating, like how to know how much to do and, you know, get frustrated with like the fact that you feel like you can’t live up to this bar that you set previously or somebody did for you.
[Ben:]
Yeah. And you might be able to make it through that period with relatively minimal amounts of detriment. But if you are at the same time as struggling with what to do, you’re also not feeling super motivated or passionate about going to the gym.
Like let’s say you just enjoy the process of going to the gym and of working out. Even if you feel like you’re stagnating a little bit or you’re not sure how to continue making progress, you might just keep going because, you know, it’s something that you know that you should do and you see the benefits. But when you’re also going through times where, whether that be you’re extremely busy, you have less time or you’re just finding like, you know, for some reason, I’m just not enjoying the gym as much recently.
Then it becomes harder when you’re also maybe not loving the results that you’re getting. Yeah. But that’s not always the case.
And I think it might be helpful to bring some personal examples from us and see like just the vast ways that you can approach things. Even when you’re not feeling motivated, passionate. Now, I just mentioned the example of somebody who they’re not happy with the results.
And then on top of that, they’re feeling kind of demotivated. But I thought something that was interesting that you brought up to me yesterday when we were talking was you said that a couple of months ago, you felt like it was like, you know, maybe the best that you’ve ever looked and also like the most content that you’ve with your body image. And then shortly after that, you started really feeling just like out of love with the process of physical fitness.
So what was that like and how did you kind of realize that that had come about?
[Sawyer:]
Yeah, man, that’s a good idea. We should talk more about our personal experiences. I think so.
I’m just putting this together now. I mean, it was around the election. That was one thing.
So I think there’s a lot of political stuff going on in my brain at that time. And I feel like it distracted from a little bit from that. But also, I think there’s just been this kind of season of life where I’m kind of like, OK, I’ve been training for a long time, know a lot of things and have optimized a lot of parts of building muscle, which has been my main concern and then staying relatively lean.
That’s been a big part of my life for the last 15 years. And, you know, not that I was doing everything right the whole time, but in recent years, I feel like I have done been doing most things right. And the progress is still so slow.
And so even though I love the process of like pushing for more, and I think that that’s mainly what motivates me to like do more than I know that I have to. It’s been so slow that I’m just kind of like. And then also the fact that I like like how I look right now and I would have to push harder in the direction of eating more and like, you know what I mean?
So I know that the tradeoffs are going to be bigger than maybe the payoff could be. Now, that’s not to say that I’m never going to do a bulk again, but that was the original intention this year was like, oh, I’m going to do like a slow, steady, continuous bulk. And then I found myself like just being like kind of coasting because I was like, I kind of like how I look and feel right now.
But I did notice like the progressions were slowing down and like everything was slowing down. And so, yeah, I guess it’s a combination of being distracted by other environmental things and and then just noticing like my progress being slower and me being OK with that in one sense, in the sense that like I like how I look and feel when I don’t like push it too hard in either direction. But it also is kind of demotivating because, you know, progress just comes slower.
And so you’re not like hungry for it every time you go to the gym, I guess. Yeah.
[Ben:]
Can I ask some follow up questions?
[Sawyer:]
Yeah, absolutely.
[Ben:]
Yeah. So prior to that realization that maybe you were not super in love or I don’t even want to say you weren’t necessarily in love with things. You were just kind of feeling maybe like content with where you are at and not super.
Just wasn’t pushing as hard, I guess. There wasn’t as emotion involved in the process. There wasn’t this like, oh, yeah, going to the gym, like the kind of that psyched up thing or like, man, I can’t wait to just like nail my nutrition.
I think sometimes especially I find when I’ve had a phase of maybe easing up like I went on a vacation and I didn’t really train and like maybe nutrition was a little bit lax. I’m often excited to get back to my routine and the structure. Yeah.
But then also sometimes you can get into a mode where you’ve been like very structured with it for a long time and you’re like, I might just ease up on things. So my follow up question was, what was your structure for training and nutrition kind of prior to this maybe realization or prior to this recent period you’ve been in and what has it been lately? And are there any differences between the two or is it like I’ve actually just been doing the same things, but like mentally I’m just not as much there as I was?
[Sawyer:]
Yeah, I think it’s more or less been the same. I mean, I’ve been trying to be in like a one to 200 calorie surplus, do the certain amounts of volume for each muscle group that I think is appropriate, trying to run like a certain like specialization split for the for the lagging body parts that I have. But yeah, I think I just found myself being like, I’m not going to be as aggressive with the nutrition.
And I feel like that is a big part of the when you’re training is dialed in. It’s a big part of how much you’re going to be able to make progressions. And like, I don’t know if your training is relatively stable.
And then also I have to be aware of like how well I’m recovering from things. And at some point you just can’t like force feed more. So I guess I was kind of like, OK, like this is working, but I’m also seeing it like slow down and I could lean in more.
Um, but for whatever reason, I’m just more comfortable not pushing super hard. And I guess that comfort just turned into like complacency at a certain point. Um, the cool thing is that I still, and I’ve talked about this on my Instagram, like I, I’m glad that I just like still do the things like I still do all the base level habits and like still work out, but it’s just not done with as much like, yeah, as much.
[Ben:]
And why is that? What motivates you to keep going even though you’re not feeling super invested or like emotionally attached to the things that you’re doing?
[Sawyer:]
Yeah, that’s a good question. I think it’s got a lot to do with like, knowing that maintenance is going to be a lot easier. And, um, and then also feeling like content with where I’m at.
Like, it means like, OK, I’m definitely, I don’t want to take any steps backwards, right? That’s a big thing, but I don’t necessarily need to keep trudging up the hill if I’m not feeling super motivated. And anybody who’s done fitness for an extended amount of time, like, you know, that it’s harder to make progress than it is to maintain it.
So I just kind of guess I, I ended up just being like, you know what, if I’m not feeling super fired up to, to keep making progress right now, not to say that I don’t think I could make progress. I think there’s still some on the table. Um, but, but just where I was feeling like, does this feel like worth the effort at this point?
And I was kind of like, you know, ambivalent about it. I was like, well, maybe I’ll just wait until that, that picks up. Cause I think you’re right.
I think there’s usually like over the course of my, like, you know, 15 or so year fitness career, you could say there’ve been like peaks and valleys in terms of excitement. And usually they follow each other. It’s like, it’s never like up and up and up for a long, long, long time.
It’s usually like up and then it goes down a little bit. And then once I relaxed my standards, then I come back up again. And, um, and so I’ve learned to just kind of ride that wave a little bit and not freak out.
Cause I know, again, I can just do maintenance stuff when I’m not feeling super fired up. And that’s kind of what I want to put out to people is like, and maybe I’m jumping ahead if yeah, but basically like, if you’re not feeling super fired up to do what is necessary to make progress, you can always just stay around maintenance in terms of calories, in terms of, uh, training volume. Um, like if you know how much that requires of you, you can just do that.
And it’s, it’s a hell of a lot easier than trying to push for progress, even when you don’t feel like up to the task, you know?
[Ben:]
And I think that’s saved me so much, you know, it’s really helpful to have a coach too, to be able to identify like what that is, what is that true maintenance versus trying to push more for progress. And I think something that I picked up from what you were talking is this idea that maintenance, I think is less stressful mentally, but it’s also just less effort and output overall. And the reason that is for you and for us is because we’ve been doing it consistently for so long that we have these baseline level of habits.
Like, so I don’t think there’s going to be a point in your life going forward where you don’t like try to eat protein three to five times per day and try to get some fruits and vegetables in and try to get some general physical activity in and work out two or three times per week, just because it’s a habit that you’ve been doing for so long. Yeah. That it’s almost hard.
It’s harder to break.
[Sawyer:]
It feels weird not to do it. Like, honestly, if I don’t move for like two days, I start feeling really weird. And in my mind, my thoughts get weird too.
So I’m just like, it’s kind of a built-in mechanism for whatever, you know, better or worse that my brain has just adopted.
[Ben:]
And I feel like that’s why it’s so important to have that like minimum level of non-negotiables because maintaining that and staying with the momentum, like, I really see it a lot with clients that I work with that fitness is such a momentum driven thing. Yeah. When you get knocked off that course, even if what it would have taken to just maintain your base level of habits, if you give that up, even though theoretically it shouldn’t be that hard to kind of kickstart that up again.
If you go completely in the other direction and you’re like, you’re not moving at all, you’re not doing your workouts, your nutrition, it’s just a lot harder to get back into the swing of things. So often I find what I’m doing with people is like, what feels like the minimum you can do right now in all of these different areas? Maybe that’s two full body workouts per week.
Maybe that’s, Hey, we’ve been trying to get you at this certain protein intake. It’s been a struggle. Maybe let’s just drop that down a little bit.
Yeah. Maybe you’ve been tracking your calories really rigidly. Instead, can we just focus on a serving, you know, X number of serving of fruits and vegetables and certain strategies that we use for satiety?
Can we focus on like maybe tracking steps and tracking sleep? All these tracking variables is just stressful to you. Can we just try to focus on more habit-based stuff, like good sleep hygiene and walking the dog three times a day and finding like that minimum level of effort, I think, and just trying to get people to just do that.
And then when they feel like they’re in a space where they want to, or they can do more, I think just having that is really helpful.
[Sawyer:]
Totally. Well, and one thing I have a question for you, which is like, one thing I’ve noticed is that like, I have a certain stress tolerance for like the totality of my life and fitness is always factored into that. Is that the same for you?
Do you always like, for instance, if you could, like you’re thinking about doing like major career shift or some kind of big undertaking, right? A big project. And you’re telling people, well, here’s how much time I have for that, right?
Here’s how much energy I have for that. When you go in and like allot that and set that up, are you already thinking I need to save this much energy for fitness? Because that’s something that I feel like I do, but I don’t know.
You know what I mean? Like, do you do that?
[Ben:]
I would say that I have chosen my career. I’ve chosen where I live. I’ve chosen my lifestyle at times in my life to be exactly what is going to be optimal for bodybuilding.
Like literally when I was doing my prep last year and I was working at the gym, I chose that gym job because I’m like, this will let me be a monk for six months. Like I wake up at the ass crack of dawn.
[Sawyer:]
That’s like the extreme example.
[Ben:]
I know, I know. But it is like, I go to the gym where I have a free gym membership. I work there.
I interact with the members. I’m already there. I can bring my meals.
I can put them in the fridge. I’m sitting behind the desk. I can get my steps in walking around.
It’s low stress. Like everything I was doing at that point was to set up to optimize bodybuilding. And what that did was it did that, but it also showed me that that’s not how I want to live my life.
And so I think that was something that was a key realization now that I’ve had some months to kind of reflect on my prep is like being so extreme in that showed me how I want to carry my life going forward and some of the things that I need to change.
[Sawyer:]
So it’s a balance, right? But I’d say in most cases, people are not taking that approach there. They’re doing the career that they are already doing or they have been doing.
They’re doing things that like are just not fitness centered, right? So they’re in their lives. They’re like, well, Ben like set his whole life up for that.
That’s cool. But like, I would, I would never do that. So I’m like, nor would I tell a client.
[Ben:]
Yeah. Right.
[Sawyer:]
Right. So you’re like, okay, so how do we, like somebody watching this, I’m just trying to think, how do we advise them to save that space? Because let’s be honest in this world, it’s not often thought about, like your work life, your family life, it’s not often easy to add on top of that, the fitness stuff.
But I guess what I’m trying to say is how do we advise people who are making these decisions, making these kind of life logistical decisions to make room for that and keep that there?
[Ben:]
You know what I mean? Well, I think there’s a reality in which your job might be your job. Of course, you have to be protective of your energy and communicate to your employer where you’re being stretched too thin because burnout is going to make it so that you can’t work at all.
So there has to be some work life negotiation there. However, you know, the demands of your job might just be, you have to be on site somewhere from nine to five every single day of the week. At the very least, I would say for most people who work a regular 40 or even up to like 60 or, you know, those folks who work overtime, usually the weekends tend to be a little bit more free.
So even if you only had Saturday, Sunday, every single week to work out and you did like, you know, an upper lower Saturday, Sunday, especially for somebody who’s just maybe getting into fitness or like is new to being guided along that journey, you can make great progress.
[Sawyer:]
So I think at least maintain. At least maintain.
[Ben:]
But like if you’re just starting out, lifting two times a week, you’re going to make great progress. I think the thing that I would say is scheduling it in. I would say having a non-negotiable time every single week, especially if that is your job where it’s of a more predictable nature and you can schedule it in.
But I’ve had people who like their jobs are variable. They don’t know what they’re going to be doing until the day before or the week of. And what I’ll tell them is the night before or the morning of carve out five minutes and figure in like the further back you can plan out the better because that can include getting your workout clothes the night before, figuring out how you can get to the gym, packing meals around the gym.
But I would say even if you can just take a little bit the time before to schedule in or like the week of if you can look at your week and say, all right, I’m going to go to the gym, you know, Monday, Thursday, Saturday or something like that. If you can’t have the Monday, Wednesday, Friday, like regular schedule, if your schedule is a little bit more variable, schedule it in. And if something comes up that is something that could be done at another time, of course there are emergencies and stuff that comes up, but like put it into your schedule.
And if somebody asks if you have that time free, don’t say yes and say, I’ll go to the gym later. Because realistically you’re not going to.
[Sawyer:]
And there’s so many other ways that I advise clients, but yeah, you’re right, man. The general notion is like if you have restrictions that your life just necessitates, you need to be creative enough. And that’s where knowing the principles comes in, right?
Because when I talk to people and they’re like, oh, well, I haven’t been able to do the workouts that I was doing in college because now my work schedule is like this and my life schedule is like this. I’m like, okay, well, how about like one exercise a day, you know, five or six days a week? And they’re like, oh, I didn’t, you know, like, I didn’t think about that.
[Ben:]
True. For people who work from home, sometimes I’ll say like, Hey, if you have 20 minutes, like three times a day, like do two of your exercises, two of your exercises, two of your exercises.
[Sawyer:]
And it’s really like what I mean by the principles is like, okay. And I like how 3DMJ puts this. They say like, what dosage does your muscle need?
Because there might be certain intensities that you like to stay away from. There might be certain frequencies that you like to say, whatever. It doesn’t really matter.
The point is on a weekly basis, if we look at the week and we break it down as like, okay, how much does each muscle kind of need to either grow or maintain? And I would typically, you can tell me if you agree with this, typically say like at least like three to five sets to maintain. And then anything above that is probably going to be like, as especially if the quality is there, like the intensity and the, keeping the tension in the muscle and all these things that we talk about.
If all those things are set, like the more sets above that you can recover from the more likely you’re going to have progress in those areas. And so I just kind of put it to people like that. And I’m like, okay, look, these are the muscle groups you care about growing.
These are the muscle groups you care about maintaining. And we’ll see if we can work that into your schedule in a way that makes sense for you. But if it’s at any point it’s too much, we’ll back it off.
We’ll do more maintenance stuff. And maybe one thing that gets to grow or whatever, because I think that, yeah, if you, if you try to do what you did in college or do what you did when you had way more time and energy and way more enthusiasm about the gym, you’re setting yourself up for failure because it’s like, oh yeah, I used to go to the gym five days a week. And now I work, you know, 50 hours a week.
It’s like, good luck, man. It’s going to be rough.
[Ben:]
So here’s something that I want to talk about. So I feel like we’ve touched a lot on like the logistics of how to make something work if you just want to kind of be on maintenance and minimum necessary. But what about like the, the emotional or like psychological aspect of enjoying fitness and nutrition and making it fun?
Like, let’s say, yeah, you know, maybe it’s not like a time issue. Maybe it’s like, you know, you’re still able to go to the gym as much as you need to go. You have the time.
It’s just, for some reason, you’re finding that it’s just not something that’s super motivating for you right now. You’re just not enjoying it as much as you used to. And maybe you really have in the past.
Like what is that like? Where do you go with people when they tell you that?
[Sawyer:]
When that’s a great question. When I talk to people who seem unmotivated, I first, I’m trying to figure out, are you unmotivated because you don’t feel like you’re capable of getting results or you feel frustrated by the process or you feel, you know, defeated by something? Or do you just genuinely not really care that much about the results themselves?
Because those are two different things, right? If somebody doesn’t really care about the results, so they’re just kind of like, I’m just kind of doing it for health and general stuff. I’m like, okay, well then like do a sport that you like or do, you know, do walking group or something, you know, just like you can do whatever you want.
Like if it’s for general health, you can just move your body and it’ll be fine. You don’t have to do the same exercise you’ve always done or you used to enjoy. Cause the results aren’t that important or specific, you know?
But if they are specific, but they just feel like, oh, I just like, I just feel like I can’t make any progress. That’s when the metrics that we pick and proving to them that things are changing comes into play. Because I think a lot of people don’t do that.
They just kind of think, oh, it’ll be obvious when my body changes. But like, especially in, you know, once you’ve been consistent for a while, it’s very slow. And it’s, you have to be perceptive to tell when it’s changing, you know?
So I guess that’s the two categories I’ll put people in right from the bat when they say they’re unmotivated. Do you do something similar or what do you do?
[Ben:]
I feel like there’s a time and a place for novelty. And I think that this is one of those times. And so sometimes I’ll ask somebody, is there something that you feel kind of excited or called to do?
Or maybe even like you feel like a little bit nervous about like, Ooh, like if I did this with this kind of like hurt my results, I’m going to bring my own personal example in here and some stuff that I’ve been thinking about. So I would say that going prior to my bodybuilding prep last year, I’d been very like all in on bodybuilding for the past couple of years and loved it. Loved the process of when I was in a bulk, you know, going to the gym, hitting the weights hard, really trying to progress.
And it was an intense, like emotional part of my day, like going to the gym and really trying to strive for progress. And my why has really been to be the best natural bodybuilder that I can be so that I can be a glowing example of what a vegan athlete can be, especially in a, you know, a sport that has been rife with myths and misconceptions about vegan athletes and what physiques they can accomplish. So I think that’s changing, but that was my life prior to last year.
And so going through my prep, it was a very tough prep. And especially like kind of on the back half of that prep, the motivation to go to the gym was so low, like training isn’t as fun when you’re really lean and kind of like depleted and sucked down. You’re not as strong.
You also just don’t have like the energy there. Your hormones can be affected. So that affects your mood and like the dopamine that you get in the serotonin from doing certain things.
So that was definitely the case for me. Then coming out of my prep, I think you get this kind of renewed sense of motivation for a little bit, like, okay, I want to make some improvements. I really want to try to see what I can do in this like off season or this improvement season.
And I want to grow these muscle groups and you’re eating more again and you’re filling up and you’re looking great in the gym. And so it’s almost like this honeymoon period for a little bit. So I went from, I was only going to the gym or I don’t want to say only because you can make great results.
But I was going to the gym pretty much like every other day during the second half of my prep. So I’d rest a day, go a day, rest a day, go a day. And that was basically what I felt like I could do at that time.
I didn’t feel like going to the gym more often than that because I wasn’t really enjoying it. But then coming out of my prep, I was like, I was feeling really like I want to try to make improvements. So I was really excited about the gym again.
So I was going, I went from going like every other day to going pretty much every single day. And that was something that I was getting enjoyment out of. And then I got to a point where I reflected a little bit.
And not only had I kind of picked up some little like aches and pains from training all the time, which is something that can happen, especially if you train with a degree of intensity and my body was still not in a great position. So I went back to training pretty much every other day. And during that time period, I was kind of reflecting and realizing that the gym was not giving me that same, like, even though I was really trying to get into it again, to be motivated by like almost, I was really trying to force it.
Like, I was really, I was like, why don’t I feel like I did in the past couple of years where I was like, so inspired to be this like beacon of just be an example and to be the best bodybuilder that I could be. I was so mission driven. I was so mission oriented.
And it felt like everything I was doing had a purpose. And that gave me like every single day I woke up and I’m like, I’m on a mission today. Like that was how I carried myself throughout the day.
And then I felt like all of a sudden I lost that. And it was like, why did I lose that? Like, why, why, why is this?
And it took me like months and months of like reflection and thinking about it. And I think what I came to realize is like, well, you know, maybe that’ll come back at some point, but right now it’s not here. So what is it that feels like something that, you know, I can, I can manage right now.
And what feels at least like, you know, what feels exciting to me. So for a while that was just like, honestly, it wasn’t even necessarily that it was feeling like exciting or motivating, but I just felt like I needed to recover from that long prep. And so for a while I was just like kind of keeping things on maintenance in the gym.
I was, I was gaining weight because you know, coming out of your prep is tough. Your hunger hormones are all over out of whack. Honestly, I just like didn’t give a crap.
I just had this desire to not be rigid with, with like mostly anything that I was doing. Yes, exactly. And this is common with bodybuilders.
Like I felt like I was locked in a box. I was literally like, I called it like prep jail. Like I felt like I was in like jail, like not actually, because we, you know, I always had free will.
I could have stopped anytime, but I felt obligated to keep going for a while. And so after feeling like this, this kind of restriction for so long, usually it’s a rubber band effect. The harder you do that, the more you slingshot the other way.
So you wanted to say something before I continue?
[Sawyer:]
Oh yeah. Yeah. Thanks.
Basically I was, I was wondering what you thought the reason behind you’re not being as worried or, or maybe as concerned or, or thoughtful of, of being the best vegan athlete you could be. Do you think that maybe there’s just like, you met a lot of other vegan athletes who were like kicking ass and had like elite genetics and like all kinds of things that you were like, Oh man, like they’re doing a great job too. Like maybe I’m not as necessary as I thought I was or something like that.
Or what do you think like snuck in that was like, you know what it was?
[Ben:]
I think in the years leading up to my prep, I really got sucked into some personalities that I found myself drawn towards. Bodybuilders who did the thing that I did, where they kind of like, not like locked themselves away, but they were so like locked in and driven. And you know, they talked about like, they just live and breath, breathe bodybuilding.
And so I followed these people because I looked up to them and I wanted to be like them. And so I convinced myself that like, this is the kind of person that you are too. And I want to be like that, but at my own version of that.
And I think that led me to be very like rigid and structured. And to be honest, I made really good progress over that time period. Like there’s no, there’s no doubt about that.
But I think what I realized is that’s just not my personality, like the hardcore, like going to the gym, like, I don’t know how to describe it, but just this, like, I’m all in on bodybuilding attitude and it’s all consuming. And for some people that works because that’s their lifestyle and they really love it. But I think I realized about myself that I tried to convince myself that like bodybuilding was the only thing that mattered, not the only thing, I don’t want to be delusional here.
Like I knew other stuff mattered, but like bodybuilding was like extremely high on my priority list. And I was willing to compromise in other aspects of my life, like family, social events, whatever it was, because that was so important to me. And it’s still important to me, but I realized that having that all in like mentality is just something that isn’t sustainable for me, like emotionally.
And then also just like within my lifestyle. So I realized I can still be a great vegan athlete and accomplish the mission that I want to accomplish, but I need to find my own way of doing it. And my own way of doing it isn’t trying to be like other people.
It isn’t trying to be this kind of like hardcore all in bodybuilder. I want to be a little bit more relaxed with things. And I see examples of athletes who are like that.
And I know I can do that myself. And that applied to training as well. Like I would train in certain ways like other people, because I thought that was cool.
And I saw that they were making great progress, but I realized, you know, I actually don’t like training like that. I like training this other way instead. And so I think over this, these last couple of months, I really just leaned into what do I like doing and does it align within those wide range of principles?
[Sawyer:]
Well, I love that. Yeah. You don’t understand the principles.
And you know, when you’re following them and when you’re developing, you know, diverting from them, but you’re also becoming more of your own person because I think it’s pretty normal to emulate people, especially at the beginning of your journey. I think when I first started fitness, I had like paid like screenshots of like all these physiques that I was like, that’s insane. That’d be so cool.
Most of these people are on gear. I learned now. And so it was unrealistic standard to hold myself to.
And I, and I had an experience like you, where I was like, I feel like I’m losing my sanity going like so hard for this. And so I definitely had that kind of a pullback too, but I found that as I, as I developed or as I got more, I still, you know, I still was very motivated with fitness. Like I didn’t like fall off.
I started doing things a little bit more my own way, which was cool. And like not being like fitness above everything else, which was, I think healthier. But, but I did find that I started emulating people a whole lot less.
So I think, yeah, I think that’s a pretty natural progression. And like, I’ve talked about right now, like recently I’ve been more into like making music and it’s funny because it’s right back. Like now that I’m making music, I’m emulating the crap out of artists that I already really like.
And I’m trying not to, but it’s, I think it’s just such a normal thing when you first start anything and you don’t have the confidence yet to be your own version of that, you know, of course you’re going to be influenced by people. And of course you’re going to be like, wow, that’s really cool. And like, but I think it should be more like an eclectic thing.
You shouldn’t be trying to be like exactly mirror anybody else. I think that can be a little unhealthy, but I think it’s also a natural progression of staying in something long enough. You’ll start to notice, like you start doing your own thing more and more.
But I think what, what you’re getting at is like, if you know, like, like basic fitness principles, music principles, whatever it is you’re trying to accomplish, you will know which variables to change and how to still make progress without having to copy somebody exactly. You know what I mean? Like all these people inspired by Bumstead, it’s like great, but who is on his level?
Very, very few people, pretty much no one, honestly. And so his protocols are his and you can’t copy him exactly. And you can’t, you know, most people can never hope to look like him.
So it’s like just learn the fitness principles and then apply them in a way that works for your lifestyle and get you closer to your goals and use him as inspiration. Sure. Ideas that you want to try.
Cool. But like, don’t try to be anybody else.
[Ben:]
Exactly. And that was kind of what I realized was that some of those people I was looking up to, I could still take certain things for them without trying to take everything and emulate everything that they were doing. And so just to give some more examples of kind of ways that I’ve changed what I’ve been doing.
I hadn’t traveled as much as I really wanted to over these past couple of years because I would be able to come up with certain reasons or excuses. Like I’m not going to be at my usual gym. I’m not going to get my same amount of high quality sleep.
I’m not going to be in my routine. And so it was just a way for me to say, you know, well, I’m not going to do those things because bodybuilding, same thing with like maybe going on more trips or, you know, with family or going out to eat, whatever it might be, social occasions that I felt like I was missing out on. And then it was easy to justify at the time.
And I felt like justified my decision. But looking back, I’m like, I’m not going to say I regret it, but maybe just being a little bit more flexible with everything that I do with my routine. It used to be like, if I said I was going to work on these days at these times, it had to be that way.
And now I’ve realized like, if something comes up, hey, you know, I can change this around. I can be a little bit more flowy with things.
[Sawyer:]
I have a question for you that just came up in my mind is like, do you think that that level of intensity or that level of specificity and routine? I mean, obviously it’s different for different endeavors, but I think at the highest level of anything.
[Ben:]
For competitive bodybuilding, yes.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah.
[Ben:]
Anything else not required.
[Sawyer:]
You think so? Like what about like Kobe or like Michael Jordan, like how rigid they were about like practice, practice, practice, like pushing themselves really hard all the time. Like, it just seems like there’s a lot of different people, people that get inspiration from these, these figureheads, these people who have just accomplished so much in any given, you know, sport especially.
But do you feel like it’s, it’s pretty much like across the board like that? Like you would need to be that level of routine to like get to the highest level. And, and do you think it’s worth it to get to the highest level for most people?
[Ben:]
I’m going to say no, because genetics play a large factor. And I know that there are some bodybuilders that are a little bit more chill with things and there are some a little bit more type A, some a little bit more type B and that’s, that’s cool. But there are things that you pick up.
And I think taking bodybuilding for instance, those who usually have very solid routines, any sport, I’m going to say, honestly, like if you have a really solid routine and you do very similar things consistently, like our bodies thrive on rhythm. So yeah, I think that that could be quote unquote optimal, but at the same time you have to live your life. Like natural bodybuilding is not a professional sport.
Like people are not making multi-million dollar contracts from this stuff. So it’s, you got to put it in context.
[Sawyer:]
I like what you said actually, when you said that like some, some bodybuilders are more type A, some are more type B and those genetic factors, because I think the danger of having one idol is that you think that’s the only way or the best way to live like your whole life or like anything you want to be great at. Whereas if you have, say like you’ve got Phil Heath and then you’ve got Ky Green and then you’ve got, or whatever, you know, just as a bodybuilding example, Bumstead, whatever, you’ve got enough, like different people saying different, slightly different things. Like, yeah, they’re all based on the principles that, you know, that we know are important, but they all have a different approach and a different level of intensity with it.
Like some people think this is like cornerstone and other people are like, eh, like I kind of do that. It’s, I think it helps you be more flexible in your mind because you’re not like, oh, I have to do everything like this by the book, like this guy does. So I think that’s, that’s the importance of like, maybe when you first start out, you’re inspired by one person or, or, you know, one group, but then over time, if you recognize the same qualities or the same or, or similar level of success in other things or in the same thing from other people, but they happen to have different philosophies or different routines, it will give you the ability to branch out and say, oh, actually there’s more than one way to do this. I think that’s the danger of having one person that you’re trying to emulate too closely.
[Ben:]
Yeah. I think it’s, I think it’s valuable to seek out a wide variety of opinions and ways of doing things. And sorry, you weren’t finished.
Go ahead.
[Sawyer:]
No, no, no. That’s pretty much it. Oh, okay.
[Ben:]
So I guess to bring it back to how I’m trying to make fitness fun again for myself, something that I don’t always think is like the most wise thing to do all the time, but like changing your training split, like for a while I was doing a push-put leg split. Then I was doing an upper lower split. Now I’m doing kind of like an Arnold split, which is like a torso arms, leg split.
And I mean, the thing is, again, like unless you’re the top 1% trying to make it, it doesn’t matter if like every three to six months, you’re kind of changing what you’re doing there. I don’t think it’s going to make a huge difference. And so for me, I’m like, okay, what split kind of sounds fun.
I’ll do that for a couple of months and stick with that. And there are ways of breaking that up. So I’ve actually been going to the gym every day and just doing shorter workouts because I like the routine and like the habit and the rhythm of doing that.
But that isn’t to say like a couple of months from now, maybe I’ll go back to going every other day, or maybe I’ll still go every day, but I’ll change kind of the way that I’m doing things. So I’ve been training in a way that is a little bit different than what I’ve done in the past, but it’s been really enjoyable. So I’ve been doing that.
I’ve been doing like, not that I really love this, but I’ve been doing like more cardio because it was something that was just like, I haven’t done that much of. So let me try to work in some cardio intentionally. I’ve been doing a little bit of like a dieting phase.
So I’ve been experimenting with things like usually I’ll eat like four or five meals a day, but what if I did kind of like an intermittent fasting approach and did three meals a day? Like that feels like something that is working for me right now. And maybe I haven’t done it that much in the past.
And again, it goes back to understanding the principles and applying them there. And then also I’ve been thinking about maybe getting back into ultimate Frisbee, which is something I played for a long time. And that is something that it’s a little scary because it, you know, it’s a demanding sport.
You run a ton, like my, the amount of throughput with your legs and just like the amount of running around and cardio you do, it’s crazy. But it’s also just like a really fun thing to do. And it’s a fun community.
[Sawyer:]
And there is a way I can do cardio is to play sports.
[Ben:]
Yeah. And that’s great too. Like it’s just another way of doing it.
But that was something that I haven’t done in the past couple of years. Cause I’m like, how is it going to impact my training? How is it going to impact the durability of my body if I get injuries and that sort of thing.
But that’s something that it’s like almost by virtue of it being a little bit scary, it’s a little bit exciting. And so that’s kind of what’s making fitness. And I think keeping it going for me is like trying new things, you know, doing things that maybe people like doing cardio every day and then also training every day.
Like most people would say, Oh, you’re doing way too much. Like that’s crazy. But like, it’s working for me right now.
So I think it’s also like, when you understand the principles, you can experiment with things, you can try new things.
[Sawyer:]
Well, a lot of people, like how you said, like you felt you were like in prep jail. A lot of people feel like that with their routines right now, because they’re like, this is the only thing that works. Right.
And then, cause they don’t understand the principles. So I think one thing I love about being a coach is when people are, are just feel comfortable asking questions and they’re like, Hey, how important is like rep range? And, you know, and then I’ll explain that, that principle to them and they’d be like, Oh, and they’re like, Oh, okay.
I think I want to go higher up on this one and lower up on this one. I’m like, cool. Yeah, do it.
Like, you know, and then they just feel like it’s opened up a little bit for them. Like they have more room to play with things than they thought they did. But they still feel safe because I know how to explain it to them in a way which they’re still going to get results.
And so, yeah, after a process of coaching somebody, I feel like one of my big goals is to make them feel like they have more control and they feel like less scared to like step out of the lane that they started fitness in. Because a lot of times they’d feel very paranoid about, you know what I mean? Cause a lot of people feel like, Oh, this thing worked.
This thing didn’t, okay. I’m just going to do this forever. And they just don’t, don’t move.
What was I going to say? You had another good point about, Oh, doing things that are challenging and a little scary being fun. That’s how I feel about music right now.
Like it’s so, I’m freaking terrified. I’m so vulnerable right now. It feels like I’m starting my fitness journey over again.
And I kind of like it. Like it’s, I think fitness, what it teaches you, especially if you get good at it, like that um, part of the fun is, is feeling unsure is feeling like, can I do this? Like, you know, I don’t know if I can, like, what am I able to accomplish?
And I think now that I’ve been in fitness for so long, I’m like, okay, I kind of know what’s a realistic rate of everything. And like, I think it’s just a little bit disillusioning. Like, okay.
I’m like, okay, now it’s going to be more slow and this is what I’m gonna have to do. And I’m like, like, I don’t know. I guess it’s not that it’s not fun or that I’m not going to do it, but it’s less scary.
It’s less, what’s going to happen? And the progress is going to be slower than something that I start over. That’s new.
Um, and I think I, at some level recognize that. And so music feels like a new endeavor that I can do it. But you could, if, if you fall out of love with the gym, you could fall in love with rock climbing.
You could fall in love, you know what I mean? So like, yeah. Keep the gym on maintenance mode and then find other ways to do it.
[Ben:]
Totally.
[Sawyer:]
Totally. If you don’t want to lose the progress that you’ve gotten, but, but you don’t want to put as much effort and time into it that you have in the past. Like that’s fine.
I mean, I know so many people that like, I have a close friend who, um, you know, he works out and, but, but periodically he’ll do less and then he’ll do like Muay Thai and then he’ll do like cardio a bunch. And then he’s still stays in great shape year round, but he just gets more interested with things that are new and scary and kind of like fun. And that, that way he just kind of builds up his, you know, fun, the novelty of it, like makes it more fun for him.
So, you know, I think some people’s brains just need more of that, you know? Yeah. Um, so, yeah.
So if you’re feeling bored by fitness, uh, definitely explore some different avenues for doing it. Um, like you said that the, the threshold for building or, or especially maintaining muscle is pretty low, especially if you know how to make those sets quality, um, and very stimulative, then you don’t have to do a whole lot of it in my opinion. So, all right.
[Ben:]
I feel like I’ve said my piece. You last words to leave our audience with?
[Sawyer:]
Um, if you are finding it very overwhelming to learn these principles that we keep referencing and these questions in your head just keeps spinning and kind of throwing you out of alignment and you feel like you’re just, just constantly asking yourself questions and feeling too afraid to actually implement changes, definitely seek out coaching or, or a friend who knows more about this stuff. Be careful though, with who you choose. Like I mentioned at the beginning, there are people who think, oh, it’s because this is the one way to do it.
And anybody who says that put a red flag, uh, because it’s definitely, there’s so many ways to, um, especially with body build, like body composition change, there’s so many ways to achieve, um, the same ends. And somebody who, who needs to convince you to do things their way is probably just trying to sell you something or a certain protocol. And, um, and people who try to educate you about principles and what works and what doesn’t work and why, and, you know, is willing to explain those things to you, cares more about your empowerment.
And that’s the kind of person that I would go to.
[Ben:]
Yeah. And that’s the kind of people that we are at Vegan Protein. So if you’re interested in getting one-on-one coaching, you can head over to veganproteins.com.
You can click on the contact button and we’ll get back to you as soon as possible. You can also leave a comment if you’re watching over on YouTube. If you’re watching on the podcast platforms, you can always send us an email at coach at veganproteins.com.
Uh, again, we’ll get back to you as soon as possible. You can find us on social media at Soyboy Fitness Coaching, at Ben A. Mitchell, and then at Vegan Proteins and at Muscles by Brussels to find Danny and Giacomo.
Other than that, if you can like the podcast, uh, subscribe over on the YouTube channel, that’s all appreciated. It helps get it out to more people. If you’re enjoying the podcast, sharing it with a friend and kind of sharing it around, tagging us, uh, we’ll be sure to post all that stuff.
It is massively helpful. So thank you guys again for listening to another episode of Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels radio. I’ve been Ben and I’m Sawyer and we’ll catch you guys in the next one.
Bye.
[Sawyer:]
See ya.
