Transcript:
Dani:
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the channel. My name is Dani Taylor, co owner of Vegan Proteins Online Coaching, and we have a fun one for you today. So it occurred to me that three of our male coaches, Ben, Sawyer and Giacomo, are in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, respectively. And I thought that it was probably very interesting to hear perspectives on being a vegan man in these different decades of your life and having been vegan for different amounts of time.
So I came up with a bunch of questions for them and wanted to hear their answers, and I thought you guys would be interested to hear their answers as well. So without further ado, Ben, Sawyer, and Giacomo, we’re going to ask you some questions.
…
Ben:
My name is Ben. I’m 25 years old, and I’ve been vegan for just over four and a half years.
Sawyer:
My name’s Sawyer. I am 31 years old. Almost forgot. And I have been vegan for eight and a half years.
Giacomo:
My name is Giacomo, I’m 43 years old, and I’ve been vegan for 19 years.
Dani:
Okay, so I guess we’ll start with Ben since He’s in his 20s, so. All right. Since going vegan, how did it change your sex drive?
Ben:
Ooh, that’s a good one. It’s hard. Okay, so I went vegan back in 2020, which was just over about four and a half years now, like a lot of things, I feel like since I’ve gone vegan, I can’t note too much of a perceptible change one way or another with certain things. However, it certainly has not decreased, and I feel as though the more impactful factor is how much body
fat I have. I don’t know if you two find that as well, but pretty much, like, linearly, the more body fat I have, the. The more I notice an increase in. If you want to put it that.
Sawyer:
Way, I suppose I never go super low body fat, so I can speak to that. But I do notice when I’m cutting, it just does feel like, yeah, I have less energy for anything. But other than that, yeah, I haven’t had a perceptible change in libido since going vegan.
Giacomo:
I went vegan 20 years ago, so I have to think back a little far, but.
Dani:
And you all went vegan in your 20s, which I think is an important factor here.
Ben:
They were already probably.
Dani:
Probably pretty high on that totem pole.
Giacomo:
But I don’t remember having any problems in the sex department. Honestly, I think my libido just fine. I found myself being more attracted to others who I wanted to have sex with that were vegan. And I found the sex more fulfilling. I found that there was a better connection. And I also felt that things were off putting just thinking about they weren’t vegan. Just the idea was like, very gross to me. And then the other idea was like, thankfully, like, yes. Like this is so in that way.
Mm. In terms of my actual libido, though, my testosterone is on the upper end of what is considered normal, and that’s after it being well below what’s acceptable. Competing again and again and again. I’ve gone through six different preps over the course of 20 years, so I’ve certainly put my body through the ringer for competition. And when I get back to baseline, it’s at the upper end of what is normal whenever I get it tested.
Dani:
So do you think that it’s easier to date as a vegan in your 20s, 30s or 40s? And have you ever been judged in relationships? Because.
Ben:
So I think in theory, on paper, it should be easier because the proportion of vegan women to vegan men is skewed heavily in favor of there being more vegan women out there. However, I would say finding them is not always the easiest prospect. I mean, part of it could also just be my own habits or tendencies when it comes to seeking out women. So it’s hard to say because this is just my perspective.
There are vegan dating apps that exist that are out there. However, my experience with them has been they are not super populated. So I don’t know if it’s an issue of getting users on the app, but I haven’t seen a ton of that. And I’ve used more mainstream dating apps and I’ve encountered vegans there. And I think it’s my understanding having I have a lot of vegan women friends and I think most of them just use general dating apps as opposed to the vegan dating app.
So it’s not actually like I’m getting more exposure to vegan women, even though the proportion, it’s just like, can you find vegans? And they’re kind of hard to find everywhere. So it’s like, yeah, if I were to come across a vegan, it would be more likely that they would be a woman, but I’m just not coming across that many anyways on the dating apps.
And then outside of that, yeah, I would say I meet more vegans just like through my social circles. But I do have to. You do have to seek it out. So I think in some ways, yes, given it’s a vegan environment that you’re interacting with. Yes, you’ll have potentially more options, but in just the every everyday world, perhaps not. I mean I’ve had a couple of, not no long term, but a couple of shorter term relationships since going vegan and some of them have been, some of them have not been.
There’s definitely been more, not necessarily friction from the partner, but internal friction when it comes to that. And just saying like, can I see myself with this person long term? I’ve had a lot of conversations with other vegan men especially who are kind of my age who are dating maybe late 20s, early 30s. I guess the consensus in what I’ve talked to is like open to dating women who are not vegan but not open to being in a long term relationship if that’s not somewhere that they
eventually get to kind of by themselves because having feeling like someone is with you just because like that they’re vegan just because they’re with you. I think you can kind of vibe, vibe that out and that’s not, I just don’t think that works practically most of the time. I think they kind of have to get there themselves, which I definitely think can happen.
Has there been any pushback from partners that I’ve been with and no, I’ve never gotten pushback from any woman about being vegan. In fact, every single time, slash, the vast majority of the time they think it’s great and they said that they found it attractive.
Sawyer:
So yeah, so I’ve been in a relationship for 11 and a half years or something so I’m not probably the best candidate for this. But I will say that I personally don’t, couldn’t see myself with anybody that wasn’t vegan. So I know that would just, I mean that’s a big chunk of the dating pool we just chopped off. I mean the majority of it, vast majority of it.
And you know, I think I would just be okay with the idea that it would take longer to do that and that would kind of be my philosophy around it. Has it changed my prospects or like whatever would happen? I don’t know, it’s hard to say. But definitely I noticed my interest is for one thing it’s always going to be like with my long term relationship first. But like even like hypothesizing what would be possible. It’s like not even on the table if they’re not vegan just because I’m like it
would be. Yeah, like you were saying, there’d be some friction within me that I don’t think I could really reconcile. I don’t think I’ve ever met a woman who was like, thought it was weird or gross. I mean, I think, you know, there probably are some people out there, but women tend to be a little bit more forgiving about differences and opinion and stuff like that.
Giacomo:
That is true. If we’re stereotyping, women commit harder to be more accepting for the sake of having a relationship and a bond, no matter what the circumstances are. I do think that that stereotype plays out quite frequently. So I catch myself checking myself and saying, and also thinking about our audience because there are many relationships that start when one person is vegan and one person is not.
You can’t expect or force them with the change. You can’t control them. And then there are others that are already in it. One makes a change and one doesn’t. So I don’t want to be insensitive or be dismissive of the fact that there is a lot of that out there and that relationships can work. I’m also thinking in terms of my 20 year old mind and where my head was at.
Say in a different world I was dating same like you. I don’t know that I could explore outside of the vegan community in terms of being with someone because I have 20 years worth of conviction and that’s kind of difficult. Right? But I mean, I just can’t, I couldn’t possibly seem dating someone who wasn’t vegan at this point in my life.
Dani:
I mean, hypothetically, you’re married, obviously, but if, like, do you think it would be hard to date in your 40s as a vegan guy that only wants to date a vegan girl?
Giacomo:
I don’t think so.
Dani:
Well, la dee da. Why not?
Sawyer:
Cause look at his face. Well, you say no.
Giacomo:
Oh gosh. I. Well, I think the thing that is weird for me is I’ve been so actively involved in the vegan community now for almost 20 years. So I kind of wonder how that would play out in the dating world. And I think I would feel a little awkward about that, right? Like there were some sort of expectations or whatnot.
I really don’t know what, what in fact I would be looking for in a relationship because I don’t identify as vegan anymore. It’s just what I am. Oddly enough though, yeah, I am. I do have an identity as a public facing person who is vegan. So I kind of wonder how that would play out in a relationship.
Ben:
I feel like it would be a.
Giacomo:
Little weird, but don’t know, don’t know.
Dani:
Have you ever cheated on your vegan diet? And how did you feel about it if you did?
Ben:
I have never purchased animal products since making the decision to go vegan. However, there have been times, this was more like in closer proximity to when I went vegan, where I did eat things that contained animal products because they had already been purchased, either by myself or someone else. And I’ve had conversations with people about this.
I actually think it’s a very interesting topic. I’ve heard people justify it by saying, like, oh, well, the harm, quote, unquote, has already been done by purchasing that product and supporting that business or that industry. And so while I wouldn’t necessarily fault somebody for kind of logic and things that way, I think you have to be careful about how, like, how other people perceive those actions in terms of what that says, like, you consuming those things, meaning that
it’s okay. Like, that implicitly are saying it justifies or it is okay to eat these things. Or if by you eating them, that means that, you know, maybe somebody else could have had that instead, and that would have decreased their consumption by them not purchasing that thing. So I think it’s kind of. It’s a sticky kind of area. Like, when somebody goes vegan, it’s like, do they throw out all this stuff?
Do I donate it? Do I eat it? It’s kind of a tricky area. And I know some people are just so, like, grossed out by the thought of it that they couldn’t even stomach that, which. Totally fair. I get that. So, you know, I don’t know that there’s necessarily a right or wrong. So I’ve never purchased any animal products since going vegan because that was just kind of like a. You know, obviously there’s. There’s an emotional aspect to it when you realize, you know, you’ve been contributing
to the system for so long. But for me, it was very much like a logical, like, I don’t want to support this anymore. So I didn’t have as much of, like, the emotional kind of, like, turn off. So I was okay, you know, okay, I’ve already bought these things during my pantry, whatever. I’ll just all this happen. But then, you know, since then, it hasn’t been something where I’ve done that.
Sawyer:
That’s interesting. Yeah, that’s interesting you say that because I have. I did have a more visceral reaction to, like, the animal products after seeing what they were.
Ben:
Xander, I love this boy.
Sawyer:
So I definitely have not cheated intentionally. There have been times where people have served me something they’re like, yeah, it’s vegan. And they’re like, wait, like butter’s vegan, right? I was like, yeah. I mean, so like, whatever. So that was, you know, on me for not checking more thoroughly. But other than that, no, I have not, I’ve not intentionally ever cheated on a vegan diet because, yeah, it was, it was an ethical thing from the get go.
And even when I had stuff in the pantry or something like that, I was just like, I’ll give it away or somebody else will eat it or something like that. Because it just, yeah, it did have that more visceral kind of like, this feels weird. And I do think you’re right about that. Like, how it’s perceived is a big deal to me too. It’s not just that I think it’s icky. I also think it’s a weird thing to be around a bunch of non vegans who are like watching you eat something non vegan after saying
you’re vegan now and then. For them to like try to puzzle that together kind of. It sends mixed messages, I think. Even if it might, you know, financially or like economically make sense to not worry about it. So, yeah, I’m always conscious of like, okay, I want to be broadcasting a very consistent message to everybody, which is that, you know, I don’t partake in this and I don’t think it’s okay. And I don’t think animals are food, they shouldn’t be. And I’m not going to budge on that.
Giacomo:
It was dietary more so for me in the beginning. So before I put a label on, I said, I’m vegan. It took me a very long time to transition. That being said, after the fact, I had enough conviction in my choice and I had already started making the connection to more than just what was on my plate, looking at it as food, seeing it like this. Something had to die for me to eat this. That I had no reason to cheat after the fact wasn’t even about dying anymore.
So no, I didn’t after the fact. No, I did not cheat. Whether it was something that nobody saw or whether it was something that everyone saw, it didn’t matter. Once I went vegan, there was no looking back whatsoever. There were some accidents and there were some things that were unintentional, but never on purpose. No way.
Dani:
So Sawyer mentioned lab grown meat and I’m actually curious to hear your thoughts in the other direction of lab grown grown meat, non animal based, whey eggs, that sort of thing. Like, what are your thoughts on that?
Giacomo:
The one Thing there that is off putting to me is thinking about eating an egg because I think about eating an animal’s and I don’t have to drop that egg. And that’s just kind of gross. So even though they’re far removed from the process, just the idea of eating, I don’t see that it’s food.
Dani:
I don’t think it’s an egg. Like, there is no egg itself. It’s like egg protein that they’re making. It’s brand new. I don’t even think it’s in the market yet. But you know, like the. Not like the. Or like the bad. What was it called? Bad robot. Brave robot. The brave robot ice cream. Remember that stuff? Like, what are your thoughts on all that? The whole industry.
Giacomo:
On the industry. Okay. Because if I’m going to my taste buds, the egg thing is causing a disturbing and then dairy to a lesser extent, but still not a fan. And honestly, believe it or not, if it was a cultured meat, I’d be like, I would try this. Not something I would have normally, but I would try it just for the sake of trying it. I don’t have any.
But that’s, that’s just me personally, if I’m from going on like taste and how things feel. As far as the industry on the whole, I do think that there is some. Put it this way, I think as human beings, we’re gonna mess this all up. We’re gonna mess this whole damn thing up. We are so stuck on trying to find the solution in the most complicated way that whatever.
I don’t know what’s in store for us for the future, but I have a feeling it’s going to be some like weird hybrid mix of cultured meat and actual meat and war between the two and blending them. And by the time we’re said and done, we’re still going to like destroy the planet. That’s what I think is going to happen. That’s my, that’s my prediction. Instead of being like, oh no, it’s going to be just like a death to the finish line with just blending the two.
So it’s like I’m just a little salty at this point, just thinking that there’s going to be nothing, nothing good to come out of here. I hope I’m wrong. I hope that I’m wrong. But I see it overall as a good thing as far as sustainability is concerned, that more of this is in the food supply and if people eat it regularly, no harm, no foul. I suppose, as long as it’s not Adding dietary cholesterol to their diet and they’re comfortable with it.
Sawyer:
Yeah, I’m actually more optimistic about this. I think that cultured meat is going to take over the market slowly because it’s just so less resource intensive than actual meat. But I don’t think people are going to have a change of heart. I think people are generally self interested, but. But I do think that the companies that produce meat, if they find a cheaper way to do it, they’re gonna invest in that and they’re gonna find a way to do it and then they’re gonna make it way cheaper
and then that’s cool. I don’t think personally I’m gonna partake that much. I’m pretty happy with where I’m at. I might try it or whatever. But I like what I eat right now. I’m very excited though. I’m very optimistic about the cultured meat. I don’t know again, the timeline. Who knows if it’s gonna be too late? Who knows? It’s already too late.
The environment and stuff. But I am very excited about the implication for the animals. And I definitely, I’m gonna support the hell out of it when it comes out and broadcast it. And it’s gonna be cool also socially to not have this weird divide between me and people that exist right now at like parties and stuff when they’re like eating steak and like saying, how do you do that?
And whatever. And I’m just like, it’s kind of weird. But now I won’t have to do that. I’ll be like, okay, you can eat your thing and I don’t care. Because no, nobody had to die for it. Oh my God, I dream of that day. Actually, that just sounds like the best because I don’t have to feel like this weird internal conflict where people are trying to like get me to virtue signal that they’re doing an okay thing by like, oh, I really don’t eat that much meat.
Or I don’t do whatever. I’m like, I don’t want to placate you. I don’t want to do this. Can we not do this dance? You know what I mean? And so I wouldn’t have to do that anymore. It sounds amazing. But moreover, the biggest thing is that no more animals would be harmed for at least mass production of meat. I think there’d still be like weird, you know, heritage farm type things where they’re like, what we do with the old fashioned way, whatever, weirdos.
At least the cool thing would be that the mass production of Meat, the by and large mass production of meat would be turned into the cellular based agriculture which wouldn’t require the death and subjugation of any other species.
Ben:
You said a lot of what I wanted to say, so I’ll try to keep things brief. I am largely pro. I think there are maybe some small niche arguments that could be made like, okay, how are we getting, you know, what is the process of growing these things? The culturing process itself and is that causing animal suffering? I think an easy rebuttal to that is any amount of animal suffering that could cause will be way less than the amount that it displaces by people choosing that instead of
anything that’s coming from an animal that has to be slaughtered. So that’s that. I think that there are, you know, maybe some arguments about, okay, you’re eating a lab grown steak in public and someone sees that and they think it’s a real steak. So then it’s, you’re kind of complicitly saying it’s fine to eat steak. But I think that again, that’s such a niche argument that compared to the benefit that it would be doing.
And I will say that, yeah, there’s been some, like, there’s a producer called Good Day, I think it’s. And they basically make, they make whey protein in the lab and they sell it to all these different companies like Brave Robot, like Myprotein, which is a very popular supplement company that made that into a whey protein powder. So it’s a vegan whey protein powder because they grow it in a lab, they culture in a lab, they lay out exactly what their process is.
Like I’ve actually been buying that and using that for like a year now probably. One, because I don’t have any issues digesting dairy. I know a lot of people do. Myself, never been an issue. And again, it’s purely about ethics for me. Two, it is like I get it bulk discount. So it’s actually cheaper, it’s not more expensive. Which again kind of comes back to the price point.
Okay, if we can get these products, their equivalent, is it actually cheaper or just as cheap, then that incentivizes people to buy it more. And I enjoyed the texture better than most plant proteins. So there’s, there’s enough reasons for me to buy it. And I also feel like bicycle supporting that. It says to the producer, okay, people want more of these vegan options.
Whether or not it’s more vegan, whey protein or other, you know, things on their vegan line. At least you’re creating that demand. Which again, when I think when they look at like statistics for like, meat replacement products that they’re selling, like fast food restaurants, I do think the majority are actually non vegans who are purchasing it.
People who are like the flexitarians who are looking to eat less meat. And I think regardless of who is doing the purchasing, if it is getting somebody to choose this thing instead of that thing and it’s reducing animal suffering, it’s a net positive. And I feel like that’s what most of these things do.
Dani:
Have you ever hidden or downplayed being vegan to avoid conflict or an awkward situation?
Ben:
Oh, yes, many times. Less so recently, I’d say. The longer I’m vegan, the less I care. And I try to take a very level, measured, kind approach in whatever conversation I’m having with somebody. But I think I used to just be like, I don’t want to deal with the awkwardness of having to, you know, field all these questions and become the vegan expert in the room.
And now, like, you know, it’s just people like to feel like part of a group, like a tribe, a community. And I think that’s why so many of us feel this almost like relief or like, feel so fulfilled when we are hanging out in like, vegan settings and vegan communities, because we feel like it’s kind of our people. And maybe when we’re in a setting where it’s not as accepted or there’s a lot of hesitation around it, you’re getting a lot of questions, you’re getting a lot of pushback.
Sometimes you just don’t want to have to justify yourself with every social circumstance. So I’ve definitely never like, lied or said I wasn’t vegan, but I wouldn’t say it’s something that I always actively bring up. I don’t have a problem bringing up. If it kind of naturally comes up in conversation, if somebody asks me about it, I’m happy to, you know, to engage with that.
Downplayed. I don’t know. I think it’s kind of what Sawyer talked about with, like, you know, you’re having that dinner with someone and they’re like, oh, I’m trying to eat less meat. And then you. It’s almost like this invitation to kind of like say, like, oh, you know, it’s okay, I don’t mind, or whatever it is. Or like, they want to like, appall apologize to you.
And then you’re like, oh, well, you know, you don’t really have to apologize to me. I’M not the one that’s, you know, it’s. Yeah. So downplayed. I guess I’ve. I’ve probably avoided the conversation before or tried to steer it somewhere else just because I didn’t feel like I had the energy at that time to do that. To do that. I tried to do that lesson, like, less these days.
And I try to engage and see if I can kind of dig out, you know, worth the. What their pain points are and maybe just try to offer them, if they’re open to it or they seem like they want it, some piece of practical, helpful advice for them to implement in their life. That’s usually where I come back to. Because you can get really lost in this, like, philosophical debates with people that just take all these winding paths and you end up having more of an argument.
Whereas I feel like what I’ve come around to, more, that’s more helpful is sharing what I have done, what has worked for me, you know, with clients that I’ve worked with as well, obviously friends that I have, and just giving them, like, hey, are you trying to eat less meat? Like, here’s a couple ways that you could do it.
And just trying to keep it, like, purely practical, even if they’re not gonna get there overnight or go 100%. Like, just trying to give them some small tips to kind of nudge them in that direction. Like, every little bit helps.
Sawyer:
I think it takes a special kind of person to try to have that conversation with every single person they meet. That’d be maybe even not even that desirable because there’s just going to be some people that are not going to receive it well, no matter how well it’s put. So I think I feel the person out first before I’m going to, you know, like, if it comes up naturally, I might even skirt around it all together.
If I just don’t think that it’s going to be a productive conversation. Maybe that’s. I don’t know. It’s hard to tell. And it depends on my emotional state at the time, how brave I’m feeling that day, I guess. But if somebody gives me, like, a lot of green flags that they are somebody that is genuinely curious, you know, it’s not going to turn into a debate.
It’s going to be more of a. Just like a, you know, satisfying their curiosity kind of thing, most of the time, I’ll do that. But if it’s. If I sense any, like, contention in their voice or something where I’m like, I don’t know how this is going to go, I probably am going to.
Ben:
Skirt around it until I feel like.
Sawyer:
I know them well enough or they’re somebody else that could maybe have the conversation better with them. I’m typically thinking about, I’m trying to zoom out and not only think about my comfort, but also like, what is the best way they could hear about this in the best setting. Like this individual can hear about it because I might not be the best person for the job. I think most of the time, if somebody looks to me as like a fitness authority or something like that, it’s going to be a
lot easier to have that conversation because they’ll probably be more open to what I’m saying. But if it’s like a family event and they’re just like, they known me my whole life, is this non vegan and they think this vegan thing is weird and they’re trying to get into a little thing with me, I’m not gonna take that bait. So it just depends on the situation. But yeah, definitely downplay, definitely avoid.
Giacomo:
Sometimes I downplay and I avoid for sure. I think part of it is when you do this all the time, you just don’t want the burden. But then there’s that feeling of guilt like you could have helped somebody and you have the ability to do that. And every time someone, whenever someone approaches you, that’s an opportunity. Right. However, sometimes you just want to carry about your day or you could be in a position where you’re uncomfortable and you don’t want to get attacked or this or
that. And yes, absolutely. The context depends and matters what kinds of circles you run in. It’s interesting you said when it comes to fitness, you find that as an opportunity. Because I do the avoiding and downplaying in. Believe it or not, yes. When it comes to fitness people, I actually kind of run away from the conversation, believe it or not.
Family, just like you. I want, I want nothing to do with it whatsoever. Like, I’m not. This is my personal family time. I don’t get much of it and I, they’re, they’re the hardest critics. They’re the harshest to judge and the quickest to judge and the least likely to change, sadly, I think, unfortunately. But it’s just the most uncomfortable for you.
Selfishly, the most uncomfortable conversation for you. For me, that’s the way that it works. Strangers. I think I’m split down the line. Right. Similarly, it depends on the mood that I’m in, the situation I’m in, how much time I have, how willing I am to put myself out there and get hurt? I guess it depends. It depends where I’m at and what I’m doing.
Dani:
Well, you just brought this up, so I’m going to take it to this question. You’ve been vegan for 20 years. How has your family’s attitude shifted over that time?
Giacomo:
I don’t know that their attitude has shifted. Honestly, I think it’s still pretty much the same as it was 20 years ago, believe it or not. But if I’m being perfectly honest and blunt and fully transparent, I think it’s exactly what it was 20 years ago. That it’s not for them. They’re happy to accommodate for me. They’re happy that I’m happy. They respect and accept my opinions, but they’re not going to change and they don’t feel the need to change and they don’t think that they should
change. I don’t find myself in any uncomfortable conversations like I used to be, but I can sense that there is a little bit of uncomfortability there. I think. I don’t think the conversation has really. I don’t think we’ve really got anywhere where we’ve grown and it’s evolved and we’ve gotten to the point where there’s like a mutual understanding and maybe even some understanding on their end at least.
Like this could possibly be a good thing for them and for reasons outside of them, like, meaning nothing to do with their personal health, at least. Yeah. I mean, sometimes I’ll catch myself in a conversation where I’m like, oh, you do get it. But on the whole, I don’t know, maybe. I don’t know, maybe I’m being salty again, but, yeah, I don’t know. The conversation has changed all that much.
Sawyer:
I hope that you don’t take it as a personal hit on your ability to advocate, because I think you’re a great advocate. And don’t. Yeah, don’t even, you know, you don’t get to pick your family, so. And not to say that they’re bad people, but they just might have more resistance to this idea than your typical person. That being said, both my parents are vegan.
Yeah, let me, let’s, let’s do this masterclass right here and here. This is what you’re doing wrong. No, I’m just kidding. No, I. It’s a joke, but it’s also serious. Like, you didn’t do anything wrong. You’re a great advocate. I got lucky with my parents. For some reason. They actually, My parents actually did listen and my dad thought, I know, right?
Just suicide by sword. My dad thought I was crazy for the first, like, year. And then he got into it from the health angle and then from there he was like, yeah, actually these animals shouldn’t. And it was like, it clicked after that. But my mom from, like the first conversation was like, I want to go vegan. I was like, really? I love you. Like, I was like, I love you so much.
So she’s my hero for, like, emotional intelligence, ethical stuff. She’s amazing. And so is my dad for doing, like, they’re both amazing for doing that, that, you know, that late in life. So that was cool. And then my little brothers did it too. I don’t know if it’s. I mean, obviously I was a factor in that. I don’t know. One thing is they’re not very talkative, so I don’t know how deep their ethic runs.
But the point is that they have been vegan since I basically went vegan eight years ago. And, you know, they haven’t really seemed to stray from that. At least not they haven’t brought it up to me. So I’m very lucky in the sense that like most of my immediate family, except for my sister, is vegan and they share the ethical side of it, especially my parents talk about that a lot.
Extended family. Some people have gone and some close friends have started to ask questions in a more curious way, which I’m very grateful for when that happens now because I understand that I was more abrasive when I first went vegan and so kind of put a lot of people off, understandably. But there are some good friends who even after all that were like, now they’re like, oh, you’re still doing this and you seem more reasonable. And so they’ve asked more questions and that was cool.
So on the whole, I’m very lucky, I guess, in the grand scheme of things where there are a lot of people that just will never ever consider it. And I’ve got a good group of people, like my cousin’s another one who went vegan when I did. And it’s just like I feel very lucky to be surrounded by people who are like, open minded and ask questions that are good. Danny’s laughing back there.
Giacomo:
Giacomo’s face while you’re talking in your family.
Sawyer:
Yeah. Well, you’re welcome. Oh, my God.
Giacomo:
20 years.
Dani:
I know.
Giacomo:
No, I know.
Sawyer:
I know. I had to do it, man. Damn. When I see I’m really bad about self control, when I see a joke opportunity and somebody’s just lobbed the ball for Me, I’m like, Spike, oh, I’m sorry. I’m so sorry. That’s just my personality. So you’ll. Yeah, you like that too. All right. Got it wrong. Poor guy. We love him.
Ben:
I feel like I’m halfway in between both of you. Maybe a slightly closer to Sawyer, but similar to Giacomo in some ways. So when I went vegan, my veg. My sister has been vegetarian since she was, I want to say maybe like 10 or 11. So my brothers and I, my brother and I gave her a bunch of crab for that for many years. And I was like, I’ve talked about this before in podcasts and other settings, but I was like the biggest meat fanatic and meat eater out of all of my friends.
And that was really like a big part of our friend group. Not necessarily like meat, but just like food and like, you know, young boys, young men, whatever. Like there’s, there’s a lot of that, that’s part of that food. And so when I went vegan pretty much overnight after kind of just making that ethical connection, I remember like going to hang out with a bunch of them and just telling them that I was vegan out and they all thought it was a joke and they were like, haha, like very funny
sort of thing. And so none of them have really made like any changes there. And I don’t actually really have any friends locally that I grew up with or that I went to school with who I know that are vegan. I would say all the vegan friends and connections that I made have pretty much had to come from myself and seeking them out actively through work or connections or vegan friends that I’ve made.
And then like they have mutual friends and kind of forming a network there. But I will say, like, after doing that, I of course went through my angry vegan phase and was very preachy on my soapbox to everyone around me. And you know, I think even if people logically understand the arguments, it’s usually not the most effective thing. So then it kind of became how I usually have the conversations now, which is where somebody at right now.
What are some small changes they could implement? So, okay, swapping out dairy milk for non dairy milk in the coffee or in the cereal. And then okay, we are using like, let’s see if we can switch from meat to just meat replacement products. What are the different cheese replacement products we can find? I think a lot of it is like, what meals do you currently enjoy?
Let’s see if we can find vegan versions of them. If not, then okay, maybe we’ll try to make some more recipes and dishes. And it was around Covid, so my whole family was home when I went vegan. And so I started basically like making dinners for the whole family every night. And I would just make all these different. A lot of like one pot recipes.
I’m just vegan dishes. And I think that maybe also opened their mind to the fact that you could have more recipes and dishes. So my parents slowly started to go that way as well, as well as my brother. And so now my parents, I would say, are, I would say, like somewhere between vegetarian and plants, plant based, as is my sister. I think they understand the ethical arguments.
There’s some cognitive dissonance there and just not feeling like there’s like enough, there’s not enough. Like there’s ambivalence, which is something we talk about in coaching, right? Like they want to make a change or know that they should make a change, but there’s something holding them back from doing that. And they’re kind of caught in this limbo.
So I feel like that’s kind of where they’re at. And I’ve come to acceptance with that. Like, I’ve said the arguments a million times. I’ve had the conversations a million times. It’s like I have to. I think at a certain point you have to understand there’s only so much you can do and you can’t take it past that point. And whatever decisions people are going to make, they’re going to make you just try to lead by example and be helpful when you can.
My brother did actually go vegan. He was still in college at the time. I was either a senior or had just graduated. And part of the reason that he had kind of said it was like, oh, well, you know, can’t like college, it’s gonna be hard or whatever. And I basically just called him out on his bullshit. I’m like, charlie, you go to a liberal arts school, like in new. In New England, like, I guarantee you they have a ton of vegan options at your dining hall and you’re just being lazy.
And at first he was like, no, no, no, that’s not true. And then eventually, like, he went back to school and within a couple weeks of being back there, he was like, yeah, you’re right. And he basically, like, he’s been vegan since that point. So he always understood the ethical connection. It was just like for him, he had some practical hangups. And once he realized they weren’t as big of a deal as he thought Then, like, once he committed to doing it, it stuck.
Dani:
So a lot of people think that veganism and masculinity are like, opposite things, like an oxymoron. How has being vegan affected your views on masculinity, if at all?
Ben:
I think the most common way in which I hear this talked about is through compassion. Compassion, I think, is at the core of what it means to adopt a vegan lifestyle seeking to reduce harm to all living beings who we share this earth with. And I don’t think that there’s anything inherently masculine or feminine about that. I think it’s just an inherent human quality that we all have and some of us are a little bit more tapped into that or less tapped into that.
I would say in general, I think that women tend to be more in touch with their. I think they tend to be more emotionally intelligent, in touch with their emotions, willing to. Able to communicate them more, and willing to communicate them more with their friends and their peers. So I think men tend to keep it in a little bit more. Probably a lot of that is like programming and what we have deemed to be acceptable way of behaving as a society.
But I think that’s changing. Personally, I’m at the point where I don’t. I never feel like, you know, less than or any sort of way for be, you know, expressing my emotions in the way that they need to be expressed. And yeah, I might be a little bit more reserved than the average person, but I don’t think that comes back to me being a male and feeling like I can’t express my emotions.
I think that’s just me and my personality. And that’s why I think veganism, like, it’s not inherently masculine or feminine or whatever, it’s just it. Like, do you agree or do you buy into this premise that we should seek to avoid as much harm as we can? If so, then, yeah, then it is in line with compassion. So that’s kind of my viewing.
Sawyer:
Yeah, I was going to say something similar, which is like, it’s not. It’s weird that we always try to brand something as, like, masculine, feminine. Like, we live in such a, like, marketplace of ideas wherein everything is marketed in a certain way. And I think that, like, you know, it’s harder to market veganism to men because it’s not as, like, appealing to their sensibilities of whatever they wanted to be and their icons and whatever. So I think it’s less flashy to men. But I
think at the end of the day, we all need to be good Human beings and compassion is a part of that. So it’s just weird to me that men would, like, just wipe veganism off the table and say, oh, that’s not what men do. When it’s part of quintessential to the human experience is to be a compassionate human being. And so, yeah, it’s just. It’s weird that we try to label things masculine, feminine when they. Yeah, they really don’t have an inherent bias, like, one way or the other.
Ben:
I think part of the reason there’s a lot of, like, history and archetypes around, like, men, like the gladiator, the hunter, we go out and we kill things and we eat them. And it’s like, okay, that’s what it took to survive hundreds of years ago. So I don’t necessarily see why, just because that’s been passed on and that’s the truth of our history, that it has to be something that we hold onto or
grasp. There’s a lot of things we did many, you know, hundreds of years ago that were very unethical, even if they allowed us to survive. And who can even. Yeah, so that’s a.
Sawyer:
That’s a great point. And there’s like, I like a lot of, like, fantasy and I like, you know, when you get older, you kind of, like, more complicated, more dark, whatever stuff. And I’ve been reading the Witcher books and stuff. I’m like, wow, I’m imagining myself in that world and I’m like, wow, you would have to do a lot of crazy, like, traumatic stuff in that universe to, like, survive.
And I think one thing that a lot of people do not understand about vegans is that, like, we would do the same things if we still lived in those times or if we lived in that environment. Like, we would do the necessary evil, right? We would go hunt and kill. Or we would defend our, you know, our people from the other, you know, the attacking Vader horde or whatever like that.
It’s not that we’re afraid to do those things or that we wouldn’t do the things we need to do to survive. It’s not weakness. Don’t mistake our kindness for weakness. We are just doing what we think is right in this world right now. We’re not trying to cling to stuff of the past because it makes us feel man or something like that. We’re trying to say, hey, look, if I don’t gotta kill anybody, if I don’t data choose a lesser evil, I’m not gonna do it.
I’m gonna just find the way. That doesn’t involve hardly any, if any, evil. I mean, I’m trying to eventually grow my own food. That would be ideal. But, you know, in the meantime, I’m just definitely not gonna be killing any animals or supporting that. And I just feel like it’s weird to use that as, like, to stake your claim as to, like, your man or whatever.
Giacomo:
It’s just weird to me, the whole thing is weird. And it casts an ugly spotlight on toxic masculinity. And that is something that has become utterly obvious. And it is a pattern of behavior and it is pervasive. And you find yourself in conversations where you just don’t have the mental energy to dismantle a conversation like that or stand up for the fact that, like, this is not a broey chummy conversation.
This conversation is just one I want to exit. Please let me sink into the floor. And as a man, you are forced into these conversations. And again, it’s like how much mental gymnastics you have to play to not feel anxious in a conversation like that. And how much, like, what kind of mood are you in to deconstruct and dismantle a conversation like that? And again, that’s just the way society is. So if anything, becoming vegan casts a spotlight on all that stuff.
And it’s just very depressing, honestly. But it is changing. And you get a chance to stand up when you have the energy to do so and to speak out in conversations like that. You also get stuck in them, unfortunately. And when it comes to masculinity in general, the one word that I think of is protect, right? So we said lesser evil, we said harm reduction, protect. What could be more manly than protecting defenseless animals?
Dani:
Who were your sources of information when you went vegan?
Giacomo:
I was actually introduced to vegetarianism. That was you were pretty much vegan. And the one way that it was described to me was that if you were to eat meat, it should be a condiment on your plate. And I constantly go back to thinking of how when you have Chinese food and you have fried rice, like, there’s little bits of meat you don’t actually have.
It’s not a meat centric plate. And that logic stuck with me. And I’m like, well, I can make this change because it’s better for my health. So I write a book and author was Paul Pitchford, and. And it was just speaking about different food philosophy and different diets. And it made the argument that dietary cholesterol was just inherently unhealthy to consume. There was just no reason to consume It. So all of those points led me in that direction. And then I made the switch.
It was as simple as that for me. I didn’t read a bunch of books. The catalyst was someone having a heart attack. And I realized I was powerless to help help them. And I had no control over the situation. And western medicine and doctors weren’t exactly about to do anything about it. I was like, well, I gotta take some control here. What could I do to help myself and help others? And that was what led me down that path to read that book and make the switch.
Sawyer:
I came up during the era of like YouTube. So I was watching, I think it was on Instagram at first, where I saw like somebody hugging a chicken, a cow, playing with a ball, things like that, where I was like, oh my God, these guys are like, you know, like dogs and stuff and they have emotions and they have, you know, bonds with people and each other.
And so that like, you know, definitely made me feel some type of way. And then I, so I started looking on YouTube for like vegan bodybuilders and stuff, people who could be fit. Because that was, you know, the number one thing as a kid in there, you know, I was like 23, but felt like a kid, you know, but you know, you’re, you’re looking around at the people that are doing this stuff and you’re like, okay, was it possible to be, you know, vegan and fit and healthy and all these different
things? And so I looked to the people that I wanted to be like, and they were already doing it. And that gave me the confidence to say, you know, I could do this. And so I started phasing stuff out and eventually it just felt like, easy. So, yeah, once I saw the example ahead of me and just kind of saw some like what I eat in a day type videos and people being successful and being pretty normal, honestly, it was like I didn’t have to become a weirdo or something like that to be vegan.
It was just like, oh, okay, my muscle is going to be fine. I can even build more and I don’t have to like totally shun society and it’ll be fine. And that’s, that’s. So it gave me the courage to go ahead and do what my heart was tell me to do.
Ben:
Anyway, so I first kind of got introduced the idea of plant based or vegan athletes through watching some documentaries on Netflix. So I watched the Game Changers documentary. I watched a couple of the more health focused ones. What the health? I think there’s maybe I watched Forks over knives, I can’t remember. And then I watched Conspiracy as well.
And so I think that one tied in a little bit more of the animal ethics side of things. And I started seeing in my YouTube recommendations some videos from like vegan bodybuilders, similar to Sawyer here. And so I was watching them out of curiosity. And this was still, I was about six, nine months into getting into fitness, so I was still pretty new to the whole fitness thing as well.
They both were kind of around the same time. But I didn’t go vegan until I watched a speech by gary yourofsky on YouTube. So after watching that, I basically instantly pretty much went vegan. And then in terms of getting information like how to implement it practically, I, at the time I had, you know, I’d been watching some of these things, so I knew a little bit about what foods people were eating, but I didn’t have anything like, like a vegan proteins to, you know, really guide
things. So most of what I was doing was listening to kind of like mainstream fitness advice and trying to apply that myself, which I know is kind of how Danny and Giacomo got started because there wasn’t as much information back then. And when I, when I went vegan, the was out there, but I just didn’t know where to find it. So a lot of it was just like taking recipes and trying to make vegan versions and experimenting and making a lot of one pot stuff and just playing around in the kitchen.
Again, this was kind of around the time of COVID so I had a lot of free time to just cook and do things. So it worked out nicely. So I’d say it was a lot of like self exploration and then, you know, nutritional principles are nutritional principles. So I was learning about that in school and in my own time listening to podcasts and watching YouTube videos.
Dani:
So how is your health, do you feel like, compared to your peers?
Ben:
You know, it’s so hard not to sound like vain or conceited when, when, when I have this conversation. However I could, I could tell that even within the first year or two, there was just like a drastic difference in lifestyle between me and some of my peers. And so it was kind of a trip. Going back for my five year high school reunion a couple years ago and I’d only been a couple years into lifting weights and being vegan because they pretty much happened around the same time.
And I could already tell some people maybe had made similar lifestyle changes and habits from in high school and they look completely different. And other people, I feel like there’s kind of this trope or this archetype of the high school athlete who is the big star. And then they go off to college and they’re not, you know, they weren’t good enough to play in college.
So then they turned into kind of just like a partier. And that was like their social thing. And then, you know, you see them a couple years later and they’ve lost a lot of that, like, athletic prowess and vitality. And so I think that compared to a lot of my peers, you know, some of them kept up kind of like that active lifestyle or similar to me, maybe found lifting, found the gym.
I’m trying to think if there are people that I know that are like, vegan that I knew a long time ago or like my peace years now. You know, I have some. But I would say in general, I feel as though I’m usually one of the more athletic people, or I don’t know if athletic is bodybuilding, but, you know, healthy, fit individuals around my age. And I already see people like, kind of like their health already started kind of to take a turn, and I see that trajectory based on their habits.
If they don’t make a change, where that’s going. And it does kind of make me sad because, you know, I have people who are close to me, friends who I grew up with, who that’s kind of, you know, the way that I see things going. And it’s hard to see that. And at the same time it’s like, you know, people are gonna make the choices that they make and there’s only
so much that you can do. You try to be, you know, a positive example through doing your own thing and sharing that. And some people will vibe with that and some people won’t.
Sawyer:
So, yeah, I mean, similar sentiments. And instead of dragging that out along the same lines, I’ll just say that I don’t think it’s necessarily a vegan, non vegan thing at this point. I do think that like heart disease plays out over the course of several decades and things like that. But at least at the surface, like, I think the big thing is whether you find a way of training and eating that give you vitality.
And I think a lot of that has to do with kind of constantly exploring new ways of doing that. And I think sometimes when people get to like working age, they kind of just like resign themselves to, you know, being an ex athlete or whatever, and they kind of don’t have a new way of staying in shape. They don’t have a new way of like, you know, bringing structure to their nutrition, and they kind of just fall into the easiest path, the most traveled path, which is not really worrying about
those things too much or kind of doing them sporadically. So I think by far and away that’s a bigger problem for people in my. In our age, you know, kind of group. And then once you get into like middle age and stuff, I think that’s when disease pathologies kind of manifest themselves. And that can be more of a diet specific thing too. I think that’s going to be probably the biggest determinant of that. But exercise too, as well, so.
Ben:
Yeah, and people’s psychology too. I think the older you get, the more stuck in your ways you get and the harder it becomes to change.
Giacomo:
People my age are afraid of being sick and they’re afraid to change. They have a lack of belief in themselves even when they have the answer, which is really, really sad. The others that are ignorant, well, it’s hard to feel bad for them. It’s just sad in a different way because they’re not interested in making changes and they want to complain about what they need to do to control their disease or to not get sick, and they focus on other things.
Well, if they can get their financial health in check or if they can get their stress levels down, they can be healthier and they can live the way they want to live. And this is their personal choice. And so you accept that it hurts to see it. It also hurts to see people your age aging faster. You can see it on their body. They’re also dying. And that’s also really sad.
So it’s hard to watch people in their back 50 not be able to have some of their best years and watch their life being sucked out of them because they have the answer and they don’t have a belief in themselves or they don’t want to hear or listen to what could be an answer for them, or they just are not exposed to the right information, which is also possible. You see a lot of people just going through the system, the medical system, and people trying to support them emotionally to get to a
good place. And they’re trying so hard, they just haven’t stumbled upon the right information. So that’s hard to see happen as well. There’s a lot of different scenarios I think about with people as they’re aging and you watch their health deteriorate and you see that yours is not. The other thing is that when you do go vegan, you are more likely to make positive choices for your health and That’s a cool thing.
Sawyer:
Yeah. No, I just want to add this, I think. Yeah. When you surround yourself with people who are constantly trying to better themselves and they’re not afraid of change and they’re not afraid of things, like, you can learn some pretty cool things and you can be inspired in some pretty cool ways. But I also think that with the Internet the way it is, it’s very hard to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong information, especially for a lot of people who just have no
background in this kind of stuff. I would encourage those people to just experiment, be open minded, learn as much as they can about the actual biology and like, science behind these things. Because then when those things start lining up with the way people are living their lives, I get that, like, the mechanistic stuff is really popular online and like, well, IGF1 and insulin, you know, whatever, it can get really confusing. But look at outcome data, look at people who are
living the examples of the way that you want to live and then keep striving for that because it’s far too easy to fall into. Yeah, like ambivalence and like inaction in this day and age. And you just can’t let that happen. So the sooner you can do that and make changes in your life and then finally find something that betters you, I think the better, because then you can avoid all this stuff of, like, being set in your ways.
Dani:
Ben, what’s one piece of advice you wish you could give your younger self about being vegan?
Ben:
I went vegan when I was 20, I believe 20 or 21. If I had heard this sooner, like maybe when I was in high school, I would have probably gone vegan sooner. And that is, do not let your fear of what other people are going to think about you and your choices dictate the way that you choose to live your life. If you believe that something is right for you, morally, ethically, and it’s not harming others, in fact, it’s obviously in this scenario reducing harm.
As hard as it is to go against the grain, if the majority of the people are not doing this. Listen to that, Listen to that. That isn’t to say that every time we feel something is right, we are right and we’re just in that. However, I think if you have, you know, a solid moral compass, you’ve thought through things, you feel like this is the way that, you know, you are, you know, should be living your life and want to live your life.
Don’t let fear of rejection, of, you know, being seen as Other prevent you from doing that because living in alignment with your values feels way better than the maybe. I don’t want to say pain or hurt, but I guess maybe challenges that come with navigating situations where you are maybe seen as more of a minority or an outcast, at least in that aspect.
Sawyer:
So I think when I changed, it was mostly because I realized that animals are individuals. And I wish that I had been taught that sooner. I think that, you know, I grew up in a, like, Catholic school setting and it was always kind of like, okay, well, here’s science and biology and then over here, here’s humans. We’re like this other thing. I was like, I don’t even think it was ever told to me that like, humans are animals.
Like, literally that’s how bad it was. So I think when I finally connected those dots, I was like, wait, we’re part of this animal kingdom. We don’t lord over it. We’re just a part of this giant tree of, you know, winding branches and different species shooting off from each other. I was like, holy crap. Like, this is, this is crazy. Like, we’re not just this special divine creatures.
We are actually just another part of the animal kingdom. And so when I realized that, I was like, oh my God. Animals are individuals. They have feelings just like me. They have thoughts and friends just like me. And that started the whole chain reaction, right? So I think if I had been told that sooner, it would have started things a lot sooner for me.
Ben:
I realized that what I was trying to get to was not necessarily that I wasn’t open to going vegan because I was afraid of what other people would think. But I think it was kind of this mentality of, I’m only one person, what can I do? And look at everyone else, they’re doing this thing. So, like I, you know, you know, if everyone else says it’s okay, then why isn’t it okay? And I’m just gonna bury my head in the sand like everyone else.
And I think the moment that I realized that, and I knew intellectually, like, if everyone thought like that, nothing would change. But I think just probably the piece of advice I’d actually give would be, you do make a difference. You can make a difference. And it takes every single person in order to make a change.
Dani:
So, all right, everybody, Well, I hope that you enjoyed that as much as I enjoyed asking the questions and filming it. If you are interested in any kind of one on one coaching and you’re vegan or you want to be vegan, that’s exactly what we do. Head over to veganproteins.com, fill out a coaching application and you will hear from one of us right away.
And I believe the link is also down in the description below. If you have any questions for us, feel free to shoot them to us. Coacheganproteins.com if you like the video, don’t forget to like the video. Subscribe. Hit the bell. All the things I’m supposed to tell you to do at the end of a YouTube video and we will talk to you soon.
Sawyer:
Bye.
