Ep 145 – Our Thoughts On All-Or-Nothing Vegans

Dani:

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of vegan proteins muscles by Brussels Radio. My name is Dani. I’m Athena, and this is episode 145. All right, well, welcome back, everybody. I know that the last episode we did with Athena, you guys loved. I think that was the one we did about relationships, right?

Athena:

Yeah. Dating.

Dani:

We still are getting comments on, like, the YouTube version of that, like, regularly. People really enjoyed that one, even though it had nothing to do with fitness or food or anything like that. But you guys wanted her back, so she’s back. And we’re going to talk about different vegan stuff today. So today we’re going to be talking about all or nothing vegans.

Kind of the theme of the month is like, that all or nothing mentality. And I know we recorded one about how all or nothing thinking, like, is harming your fitness progress, but there’s a lot of all or nothing vegans as well, where it’s like they’re all vegan or they’re all not vegan, or they’re judging people in different ways. And I just thought that would be kind of like an interesting thing to talk about.

So what is your. I know that obviously you’re 100% vegan and I’m 100% vegan, but like, what is your take on those folks that are like, well, if you. If you took ibuprofen or something for your headache, you’re not vegan because it was originally tested on animals. Like, do you know people like that?

Athena:

Not with medicine usually, but with. I mean, from the Internet, yes. Personally, no. But like, just going through any comment, yes, they exist and they are everywhere. Personally, if you aren’t all vegan, you’re not just kidding. But yeah, I do see that everywhere. But the reality is that even when we are 100% vegan, that is even a misnomer. Yeah, there’s no 100% perfect vegan. Because the reality is, is that we cannot buy everything vegan in terms of, like, tires, cars unless

you can afford it and you have a buck ton of money to buy like a Rivian or a Tesla. Because I think both of them are like fully vegan interiors. You know, you kind of just have to give and take and do your best. And that’s what I think veganism stands for, is reducing harm overall, doing the best that you can with the limitations that you have. Yeah, that’s my take on that.

Dani:

Yeah, I agree. And I think actually, even though I do know vegans like this, who every little thing they’re calling people out for, I don’t know, using toilet paper. I’ve been vegan for 21 years and it was just this year actually, that I learned two major things are not actually vegan. One is most toilet papers have like animal based glues in them or something.

Athena:

Like what? Right?

Dani:

Exactly. Like why is that a thing, first of all? But I’ll get to the other one that I just learned this year because it shocked me and I bet it will shock a bunch of you as well. And I still don’t even know what to do with this information. Toilet paper is one of those things. I’m just, I’m just going to keep using it, you know. But there are people out there who, you know, if they choose to, if they learn something and choose to just like not use toilet paper anymore, I don’t exactly know how

you’d go about that in real life, but that is entirely someone else’s prerogative. But there are people that will like, call you out if you are not doing it the absolute perfect way. And personally, I think those are actually usually sort of the talking points of non vegans.

You know what I mean? Like, oh, well, you’re not really vegan because animals are killed when they farm crops, so you’re not really vegan. And it almost is like an excuse for them to not even bother trying to eliminate animal products in some way from their life.

Athena:

Oh, yeah, I completely agree. There are so many non vegans that come up with so many ridiculous comments or accusations and I’m like, what? That doesn’t even make sense. And most of their arguments do they not realize it’s literally always an argument towards veganism, like the crops, like you just said, that is an argument for veganism.

Who is all the crops going to? Animals. If you didn’t know animals are being fed the crop, we get like a percent, a very small percentage of the soy and all the crops that are of manufactured. And at the end of the day, we have to take, you know, the lesser of some evil sometimes and we have to choose because that’s what, we don’t have any other option right now. Like there’s mass production of animals in factory farms and some animals in the crop industry or in the crops or, I don’t even

know what that’s going. I don’t know what that’s called. Some of them are getting, they’re also getting killed. But the bigger issue right now is the animals that are getting killed. It’s a balancing act. But yeah, usually all these non vegans making the craziest accusations like grass feels pain too. Yeah, yeah.

Dani:

I remember realizing, like, how futile things felt when it occurred to me that, like, my tax dollars that I paydevelop that are, you know, taken out of my checks, whatever. Like, a lot of that goes towards things I 100% don’t support. And there’s literally like nothing short of just not paying my taxes and going to jail. There’s nothing that I can do about it.

So it was around that time because when I was younger, when I was like a teenager and I was vegan, I probably would have like, reconsidered toilet paper and what I would have done in that situation. I did try to stop taking any and all medications because I was like, oh, no, this was originally tested on animals and that was really, really hard. And I believe the definition of veganism is to not use or exploit animals as much as possible. Oh, man. I forget the actual definition.

It was like, when it’s practical, um, which, you know, that is going to change from person to person what that actually means. But there are certain things that I just don’t think we live in a world where it is possible to be 100% vegan. And I think using that knowledge to either tell somebody else they’re not vegan or not not try to eliminate animal products in some way in your life because of that reason, I think is really just a terrible sort of silly idea.

Athena:

Yeah, I completely agree. I think it’s usually an excuse to say, like, well, you know, this isn’t vegan. That’s not vegan. Or like, I could never give up this when the reality is, I say that a lot, but the reality is if we, I mean, the overall goal of veganism, like we both mentioned, is to cause the least amount of harm that we can. But if you’re trying to reduce your paying dollars going towards animal cruelty, then you can do that by buying that less, you know, doing little things.

When we have the all or nothing mentality, I think people get too wound up and they get overwhelmed. And because it is overwhelming, it’s a complete lifestyle change. I think people get extremely overwhelmed and they’re like, I could never give this up, so I won’t even try. When if we could just make small changes, like that’s still going to benefit the animals and the planet at the end of the day. So, yeah, it’s, it reminds me a.

Dani:

Lot of how people actually approach fitness and their diet and stuff like that. They think if they can’t be on the perfect plan, then why even bother trying to make a change at all? A lot of people approach veganism the same way. You know, they say, okay, I’m gonna go vegan 100% overnight. And they read all the books and they lay out the plans, and then, you know, it’s week one and they’re craving all of the things and they’re hungry.

Cause, you know, maybe they haven’t figured out how many calories they need to eat yet or things like that. And they’re just like, this doesn’t work. I can’t do this. So I’m just going back completely to what I did before. And I know some people can go vegan like that, but most people can’t. I think most people have to sort of move down the line, and we should be supportive of that, even if they’re not fully 100% vegan or where we are yet.

Like, we should be supporting anybody who’s trying to. Well, really, we should be supporting anybody who’s trying to make any kind of positive change in their life. But certainly I’m especially supportive of people who are trying to reduce, like, animal suffering in their life.

I think it’s ultimately, like a good thing, even if they’re just swapping out their dairy milk for non dairy milk for like the first month, and then they start, you know, maybe swapping out fish for something else, et cetera, et cetera. Cheese is always the last thing to go, though.

Athena:

Yeah, I think that’s a really great comparison because that is very true. A lot of people start a program full on. They start like, from zero training days, five training days, to giving up all chips, all candy, all soda, all bread. And then they wonder why they weren’t successful. And that’s because they follow the all or nothing mentality, which we do not recommend ever, with anything that is a black and white direction to take.

I would never recommend it. It doesn’t leave any space for thinking or for growth. And I think a problem that you mentioned is that some people went vegan overnight, like you said, and they think from their experience, and they give advice from their experience, whether it’s fitness, whether it’s veganism. It’s like, well, I went like, it’s like someone’s like, well, I can’t go vegan overnight.

It’s like, well, I went vegan overnight. Not everyone is you. Not everyone has your lifestyle and everyone has your, you know, whatever you were raised, they are not where you are at. So it’s not fair to always be judging people from our lives, our experiences, our thought processes, because we’ve all come from such different places and to some people, they grew up, you know, learning that, like, animals have no feelings, no thought.

Like, we don’t have to care about animals at all. Whereas other families, you know, they might have been more compassionate, et cetera. So it might be easier for that family or just the person. Maybe the person just was raised and they just were more compassionate. We can’t compare our lifestyle and the way we go about things to somebody else.

It’s not a one size fits all for going vegan. It’s not a one size fits all for starting your fitness journey. Everybody’s different, and we all need to approach it with a little more compassion, because, like, on the Internet, people are very, very cruel. And they comment on these videos and, like, and I’m like, people are like.

Dani:

That in real life, too. That I would say is not just the Internet. I see that in my day to day life all the time. And it’s one of my biggest pet peeves when people say, well, I did it, so why can’t you? And it’s exactly what you said. It’s like, well, because you’re not the same person. You’re different people. And I see it about not just veganism, not just health and fitness, about all sorts of different things.

Well, I got a job doing blah, blah, blah. I was your age. So why can’t you, like, don’t even get me started

on that conversation. But it’s not a fair way to look at things. I have met some people. I can actually use my aunt as an example. I love my aunt. She’s one of my favorite people. She wants to be vegan so badly. She loves animals. She, she is a dog groomer.

She’s like a rescuer. She, like, you know, rescues animals that get hurt in her yard. Like, she genuine, and she could never hurt an animal. I know that. But she also is, like, a food addict. I mean, I guess that’s the best way that I can put. I mean, I guess we’re all kind of food addicts, right? Because we have to eat. But, I mean, she absolutely has, you know, people say, oh, I’m addicted to sugar.

I’m addicted to that. I don’t know if that’s 100% real, but certainly, like, there’s a, there’s a food issue there. No, like, a diagnosable food issue going on, and she feels terrible about it, but she can’t get herself to, like, stop eating these things. And even when I’m like, oh, well, there’s this substitute for this or this substitute for that.

There is, but it’s also much more expensive, and she’s on a fixed income. You know, there’s all of these different roadblocks. I mean, that’s an extreme example, but there’s all these different roadblocks that people have that I think we just. We have to at least consider. And yes, there can still be solutions and options and paths, but sometimes people just don’t want to hear it right now also.

And that’s important to recognize, too, you know, like, when you’re the only vegan in a room, first of all, everybody’s going to talk about it, and they’re all going to expect you to start preaching at them. You know what I mean?

Athena:

Yeah, that’s very true.

Dani:

Is that still a thing? Like, do people still think you’re gonna lecture them?

Athena:

I don’t think people think I’m gonna lecture them. I think. I. I don’t think. I don’t know. I think it’s because I’m just. I think my attitude is just not very much a lecturer kind of person. But I think a lot of people, they always bring it up. It’s like they always say, like, online, like, all the vegan or in person, too. But, yeah, all vegans do is talk about being vegan.

And I never bring it up. It is everyone else. It is literally everyone else saying, like, oh, by the way, she’s vegan. Or like, they just. They somehow bring it into the conversation, hey, meet my friend Athena. She’s vegan. And I’m like, okay, that is me. But, yeah, it’s. Yeah. People just don’t recognize that everyone is coming from different circumstances.

In Buddhism, we’ve practiced, like, there is a cause and a condition. And, you know, whether the

person, maybe the person did grow up in a home that just wasn’t as open minded or whatever, like, we don’t even consider those things. It’s like, yeah, well, you’re an adult now, so you should know and you should be able to think this way. The reality is, is no, we grow up.

So, like, every, like, experience that we have is shaping us day by day by day. And you have no idea the decisions that you would make if you were in their shoes. But everyone seems to think that they would do this and that and this and that, but you don’t know. You’re not in their shoes. You could never know. And coming at it with the all anything mindset of like, well, you are bad and you’re doing this wrong without giving them any opportunity for a small change is, I think, harmful to

the vegan community. It’s harmful to our vegan mission if we are coming at every single person thinking that, you know, if they’re not 100% vegan, they’re not doing enough because it’s not going to happen. Like, we aren’t going to make the entire world vegan, at least right now.

Dani:

Not in our lifetimes.

Athena:

No, not in our lifetime. It is not happening. So we need to be able to be okay with the fact that, you know, it’s a, it’s a process and people go at it slowly and small changes make a change, but people aren’t even going to make the small changes if we are freaking out at them about being all or nothing. So that’s what I say on that.

Dani:

Yeah, I mean, preachy vegans absolutely exist. And I know that that’s the stereotype, the preachy vegan, I have seen it way, way, way less than the stereotype would lead you to believe. That’s like, if I’m the only vegan in a Roman is exactly what you said, somebody’s going to bring it up. I’m never going to bring it up. That’s like my worst nightmare, to have a room full of people asking me about my ethics and morals and diet and it’s like I’m just trying to live over here.

And they all start like confessing their food sins to me or like wanting to start a fight and I’m just like, good Lord. But there are preachy vegans and I’ve seen some even recently in person, and it’s not cute. It’s really pretty cringey to even like watch those interactions happen because you can see someone like coming for the jugular of somebody else who maybe is like having a hamburger or something.

And what do you think that person is going to leave that conversation feeling like, wow, that vegan was totally, totally right. I’m a giant asshole and I’m going to change because of that. No, that is 99% of the time, that’s not what they’re going to leave thinking. They’re going to leave thinking vegans are assholes and I want nothing to do with them or their community.

Athena:

That is a fact. I think, oh my goodness, so many people think they’re going to change people’s decisions and minds about almost everything. There are constantly arguments in person and online of people just saying their viewpoint and expecting someone to change. And the world does not work that way. Let me know all of the times that you’ve come out of an argument where you just completely change your perspective completely.

We’re ready to change your entire lifestyle. It doesn’t happen. It does not happen. There is more to it. The person needs to be ready for one. The person needs to want to hear you, which usually they don’t. Usually they just want to state their side and you just want to state yours. And that’s the problem. We don’t listen enough. We’re just too focused on our beliefs and not open minded.

I don’t mind listening to a meat eater talk about, you know, like why they haven’t been able to go vegan for whatever reason. It is because it allows me to learn about like a better response to them. It allows me to be more open minded, it allows them to feel heard and they’re much more likely to come out of a conversation like that. I’ve had multiple people say like, thank you for having this conversation for me, with me, like, I didn’t change my mind, but I really appreciate having a

better understanding. And who knows? It can plant seeds if we are just a little kinder. There’s a lot of reasons why the all mentality can be harmful, harmful to the, to the whole vegan mission.

Dani:

Yeah, totally. And you know, you do plant those seeds. I mean, like I said, I’ve been vegan for 21 years. I went vegan in high school. I’m still friends with some of those people that were ruthless to me in high school when this happened. And only I think one of them is probably vegan now. But a few of them like are always trying different vegan recipes and you know, one of them took up vegetable gardening because they didn’t want to like get,

they wanted to be able to support themselves with more plant based foods. It’s just the seeds do get planted and they grow over time. Like you said, shaped like day by day.

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Dani:

I want to talk about a different kind of all or nothing vegan. The vegans that are. How do I put this? The vegans that are implying you’re not vegan enough because you eat packaged foods.

Athena:

Yeah, that’s a tough one. Not a tough one because of. I have to think of my thoughts on it. It’s more of a tough one of elaborating those thoughts. If you see the problem with that mindset is you can say that about so many different things. There. Sugar is processed with bone char. Sugar is in almost like 70% of the foods in the grocery store. If you’re not in the fruit and vegetable aisle, it is in almost everything. Are you going to avoid almost everything in the grocery store?

Probably not. Most vegans do not. You know, it is sucky and it would be so awesome if we could completely avoid animal cruelty. But that’s just not. It’s not reality. We can’t be 100% and that doesn’t make sense with the whole process because I know they say, like, I want, like, it tastes like meat. Like, why would you even eat that? Like, vegans don’t start going vegan because they don’t like the taste of meat.

Dani:

Yeah, very, very rarely.

Athena:

Most. I know, I know Natalie, she doesn’t like the taste of meat. But most people loved me. They loved it. I used to love it. I’m sure you enjoyed it. And I didn’t stop eating it because I just stopped enjoying it. Stopped liking it. I stopped eating it because I don’t want to participate in animal cruelty. And that’s what these products are offering us, the ability to still have that taste without the cruelty. So I don’t understand. I don’t understand the argument.

Dani:

There is this whole vibe of if you are not eating seriously whole vegetables from the garden, then you’re doing veganism badly. I actually got a message today. I’m going to read it to you. I’m going to take some of the names out of it because I’m not interested in doing names. It says, this particular group of people says there are no adequate vegan proteins.

And this person says there are, says there are and uses no protein powders. I look for those who sincerely make their body strong without weird non food props. So I’m curious if you all use.

Athena:

Food non food props. Okay.

Dani:

I mean, that’s a real message in my inbox today, implying that there are foods that are nothing foods, you know, and I get, I don’t even have to ask because I already know where this person is going. Like, if you eat a beyond burger, that’s a franken food. It’s not real food. I hate that term, real food. You know, some people ask me, I posted something about how, like in vegan proteins, we don’t cut out any major food groups.

And somebody was like, vegans don’t cut out major food groups. And I tried to explain them like, no, actually we eat a very balanced diet of carbs, proteins, fats, fibers, this, that. And I was like, we don’t really see like animals as food. Whatever nutrients are getting from those foods, we are also getting from other foods. But where was I going with that?

There was a place I was going with that. Yeah. Outside of that, like to say that things are not food. Like if you’re eating a candy bar, oh, that’s not real food. I mean, it is real food. And if it’s a vegan candy bar, guess what? It’s still vegan. And what’s the big deal? Those are the people that really chat my ass. I hate that stuff.

Athena:

I agree. It’s very much a better than thou mentality. And guess who listens to people that have a better than thou personality? Nobody. Nobody is listening to you. Nobody cares about your opinion. Because those kinds of people bring shame to other people. And what does shame make people feel like? Not very good. So how is someone who’s not feeling very good going to respond?

Not very nicely. If someone shamed me, even if it was like another vegan shaming me for being vegan, which I’m vegan, it would make me feel crappy and I wouldn’t, like, I wouldn’t be responsive to the message because why would I be? They just are being rude and very self centered because they’re coming from their place. It’s just, ugh, I don’t like it. I don’t like it. I don’t like anyone with the better than thou personality. Yep.

Nobody’s better than anybody. We’re like, yeah, we’re all working on ourselves and everyone’s working on themselves in different ways. And people are working on themselves. You know, maybe they’re just not, they’re not there yet. Give them. Give them space and they don’t have to be there. They don’t have to be there where they’re, like, picking and choosing what is food and what isn’t. Yeah, I don’t, and you don’t have.

Dani:

To be like that. Like, we have clients at vegan proteins that are very strictly whole food plant based. And they’re not like, dinks about it at all. They’re totally like, I eat this way, you eat that way, and that’s fine. And, you know, I’m always impressed. I’m like, hey, check out what these people are capable of doing. If you’re interested in how to incorporate more whole plant based foods, like, you need to check. You need to check these folks out. And I don’t know, I just, I have

seen over the years so many people who, yeah. Are doing the, like, well, you’re not vegan enough because you consume oils or, you know, back in the day, thank God this trend died. But there were groups of vegans out there that would shame you if you ate anything that wasn’t fruit, like fruitarians. You’re probably, oh, my God, I’m about to feel, like, very old, but you’re probably too young to remember the 30 bananas a day craze, right?

Athena:

No, I’ve heard of it. I’ve heard of it.

Dani:

Oh, God, that was hideous. It was a hideous time. It was a dark time for everybody.

Athena:

I am not going to lie. I’ve tried a root cleanse in the past for a week and it was, it was, it was beyond. It was like, way before all the information that I know now. So it is not something that I would ever recommend. And it was awful. It was so terrible. I had to eat so many bananas. And I absolutely hate bananas that, like, I literally gag eating them. It was so gross. And it was like one of the worst weeks ever. So 30 bananas a day? I.

Dani:

Yeah, but that, you know, that crowd was so judgy and, you know, there was also, I think, even a little bit before that was the general, like, raw food crowd, which was once upon a time was for some reason, it became, like, more popular than regular veganism for a couple of years. Like raw food veganism.

And man, they were like the judgiest. They’d be like, oh, you’re eating cooked broccoli. Well, you know, that’s toxic for you. And I was like, you know, you sound like a walking eating disorder. Like, please stop. You’re not helping anybody. I don’t know.

Athena:

Yeah, I just.

Dani:

There are ways to help people. There are ways to guide people without, like, deliberately making them feel bad. I mean, what is your, I guess, take on, like, how do you influence people if you are trying to influence somebody to maybe adopt a more plant based lifestyle? Like, what are some of the ways that you do it?

Athena:

I think one of my favorite ways is definitely by food, through food. I love, I post photos of like, all the cute food that I eat. I don’t post my, like, ugly meals. I post my nice meals. And me going out to restaurants and people love it. Like, people comment, like, I just want you to know you inspired me to, like, try this vegan dish or you inspired me to go to this vegan restaurant.

People love food. That is something that we all have, like, in relation to each other. We all need to eat. It is like something that connects everyone. And I love, and I love food. I love to eat. I love it. It’s like one of my favorite things. So it is, it just makes me feel good when people like, see a post and I’m like, oh, that looks so good. And it’s vegan. I think that’s one of my favorite ways. And just leading by example, you know, not being a rude person and having conversations that

are coming off, you know, with coming from a listening ear and not from a judging perspective, it’s just me listening to, you know, what they have to say and, you know, just trying to be an overall good person because I think that’s what inspires people is seeing you doing well, seeing you eating well, and then they’re going to ask you questions.

Dani:

Yep, that’s exactly what I was going to say. Like the exact same thing. Just live your best life, basically. And when people realize that they’re, like, safe to talk around you about these things, they will, like, once they realize that you’re not going to jump down their throat about this or that, they will actually start to ask questions or try things.

They’ll be much more receptive to try your vegan food if you are kind of to them honestly. And veganism is like an interesting sort of club because we want more people in the club. So why do we forget that so often when we’re talking to people who are not yet in the club? Vegan bros. The. Yeah,

the vegan bros. Back in the day, they’re not around much anymore.

And they were certainly problematic in their own right. They did. They had this thing that they would say sometimes, or they would say, everybody’s a future vegan. And that’s how they viewed things. Like, people might not be vegan yet, but they will be, or they could be eventually. And that’s kind of like how they would talk to people. And for all of the things that I did not like about those two, it’s a long list.

But, you know, they were really good about how they spoke about people who were not vegan. They did actually have conversations like this a lot. Um, you know, they had conversations. They. They got roasted quite a bit for talking about honey and how, like, just shut up about honey, guys, just stop.

Stop fighting about honey because you’re just. Why would anybody want to have anything to do with us when we’re over here fighting about honey when there’s, like, much, much bigger problems than honey? So they had some good points. And this was, you know, ten years ago, so they could something.

Athena:

I like that mindset. Like, yeah, everyone has the potential to be a future vegan, so talk to them like, they are not. Like, you need to do this. You need to do that. Why are you doing this? It’s like, no, there is no change coming from shame. I promise you. I promise, I promise, I promise it is. And I think people forget as long as you are. Well, that’s the other thing.

What’s the word? What’s the word when? Oh, hypo. Hypocritical. Everyone’s hypocritical. Because if you are a consumer, if you consume anything in the system at all and you are not foraging your own food, not even that, because you know what? You have to get your seeds from somewhere. If you’re consuming something, it’s. It’s probably coming from somewhere that has unethical systems.

Like, as much as we can try to do our best, we can’t research every single thing that we buy. Your cell phone was probably made in a country where there is, you know, maybe slave labor, maybe child labor or just really awful labor conditions. Quinoa, rice, beans. It doesn’t matter. Like, we have no idea the conditions of what all of our food has come from or our clothes or, you know, we can do as much research as we want, but the reality is, like, the more you go down the rabbit hole, like,

there’s always going to be something. You can’t completely avoid cruelty as much as we want to. So just remember that you are being hypocritical if you coming at it with all or nothing mindset, because as much as you can, try to do your best, and that’s the goal of, you know, remind yourself that is the goal, to try to do our best. That’s all we can do at the end of the day.

And, you know, these people might want to make changes, or maybe they don’t, but we have to give them the opportunity to get there by, you know, explaining things in, like, a nice way, you know? So if you really want to have the conversation with them, you know, ask them, like, hey, I saw you posted this steak. Would you mind having a conversation with me about it?

And if they say no, respect it, maybe they’ll come back to it. And if they say yes, then that’s your. That’s

your chance. Like, hey, let’s talk about this and be nice. But people forget. It’s. It’s hypocritical to think that we can be 1 million% cruelty free, because, sadly, that’s not the world we live in. I wish it was. I wish. I wish things came 100% ethically.

Dani:

But even stuff, you know, you mentioned, like, quinoa. That’s such a great example. Quinoa used to be, like, I forget the nation. For some reason, it’s escaping me. The nation where most quinoa was grown, that used to be, like, their primary crop, and then it became so popular that, like, the people that lived there couldn’t afford to eat it anymore, you know?

And that’s true of a lot of different things. Like, I’m so glad you brought this up. The fact that we’re all. We are all imperfect. Even if you’re a quote unquote perfect vegan, like, are you, like, who picked your avocados? Was that, like. Was that a. Was that somebody being paid an unfair wage? Or even when people go out of their way to buy, like, zero waste stuff, look at the supply chain of your.

Of your bamboo straw. Where is that coming from? Like, that might not be a perfect system. I follow this girl on YouTube, and I cannot recommend her enough. Her channel is called Shell Bizzle. It’s a silly YouTube name. Her name is Shelby, and she is. She’s vegan. She’s definitely, like, plant based, but she’s more of, like, an eco person than, like a.

Than, like an ethical vegan sort of situation. But she talks about the supply chain of so many things that we consider to be, like, better for the environment or better for this or that. And it’s fascinating and it’s very, very eye opening. And it makes me wonder how many people are out there that kind of, like, know this in the back of the mind. They know the food chain is terrible here. Like, they know it’s not good. They know that our clothes are made by, like, child slaves for

pennies. We know that our electronics are made by people jumping out of factory windows. Like, and there’s got to be a group of people out there that’s just saying, like, well, I can’t change any of that, so why bother? And, I mean, it’s. It’s not my stance. I want to do the best that I can do, but if somebody else has that stance, I mean, that’s valid. You know, I can understand why somebody would feel that way because the systems that we live in do feel very hopeless sometimes.

Athena:

Oh, yeah, I completely agree.

Dani:

And on that cheerful note, no, I’m just.

Athena:

And we’re done. Just kidding. Yeah, it’s. I think maybe it’s not about, you know, us making people feel bad for, you know, not being able to be 100% ethical. It’s just pointing out that we can’t be 100% ethical. And people forget that, especially the all or nothing vegans. People forget, you know, that they are not perfect. And believe it or nothing, you’re not perfect.

None of us are. It’s impossible. We can’t be. We’re all perfect in our own ways, but we are perfectly imperfect. And all we can do is, you know, our absolute best. But us as consumers, you know, we can research as much as we want, but, you know, nobody’s researching every single thing they buy in the grocery store. It’s just not happening. Nobody’s researching.

Dani:

Makes me feel like, you know, it’s unfortunate that we put so much burden on the consumer to make all the best choices possible when really we should be holding these corporations feet to the fire and saying, you need to change the way you do business because one person can’t really can’t make that much of it. I mean, we can all vote with our dollars, but it’s very different.

Like, the change we’ll make is just like, a fraction of what could be made if things were changed, like, way at the systemic level. If we just said, hey, corporations, you cannot do this thing anymore, then it would. It would change and there would be big changes from that.

Athena:

So, yeah, I think it’s also important to recognize how many social advocates are out there for so many different things. And, you know, maybe this person that you’re thinking of, maybe they aren’t vegan, but realize that there are so many social issues in this world. Like you just mentioned, that, you know, we shouldn’t have to fight these fights, but we do.

So, you know, maybe this person’s not vegan, but they are, like, I don’t know, donating hundreds of $1,000 every couple of years for ending slavery somewhere, ending child trafficking. And, like, there’s just so many social issues, we can’t keep up with them all. I wish I could. Like, there are so many social issues where I just get. I start thinking about every single one. I get so overwhelmed. And we have to recognize that some people put others as priorities over the other.

Veganism is, you know, most of our priority. It’s like our top priority, but that doesn’t mean anything is, you know, less than that or unequal to that. There are so many social issues that are being worked on, and we can’t change them all. We can’t fix them all. So sometimes you have to really prioritize the one or the two and realize that, you know, this isn’t everyone else’s priority. Other people have different priorities in their.

Dani:

Lives, and a lot of them are connected, too.

Athena:

Yeah.

Dani:

Yeah. A lot of these social issues are connected.

Athena:

That is very true. And any, any reduction in animal cruelty is a win for us. Remember that when you’re talking to these people. Any form of reduction. You know, if a person says, I can never be vegan because I can’t stop eating cheese, then stop eating everything else but cheese.

Dani:

Right.

Athena:

And don’t shame them for it. Like, if they’re giving everything up except for cheese.

Dani:

Yeah, you might think it’s weird. Like, like, if that was me, I might be like, huh, weird. Hell to die on. I don’t get it. I don’t understand it, but it’s not my life, you know? So we don’t have to understand. Yeah. Because I constantly am seeing the thing, the choices other people make and going, hmm, interesting.

Athena:

Oh, yeah, no, I completely agree. Like, as a vegan, I’ll see vegans eating certain things. And in my head I’m like, hmm, that’s not vegan. But it’s not like I’m going up to them saying, wow, you’re not vegan anymore. If we have that mindset, which, I mean, I think that’s something to talk about. The word vegan, because what vegans usually define it as is a person who does not eat meat for animal to end the suffering of animal cruelty.

That is, you know, what we consider as vegan, and then we consider plant based, the people who are doing it more for the environmental reasons or the health reasons, not really for the animals, but people just use them interchangeably. And the plant based people, they’re usually a little more lenient, they’re a little more lax. They’ll have whatever they want here and there, whereas the vegans are

typically very much more strict if we’re using that lingo.

And I think that’s where there’s a big disconnection, because I think people just use the words interchangeably. And I think, I mean, it can be. I think as a vegan, it can be a little like you said. Hmm. Is it a vegan? But at the end of the day, we, you know, we have the choice to, you know, keep that in our heads. We don’t have to say everything that we think out loud.

It. I don’t have to call you out for doing something because you’re doing more than so many other people. Even if you’re just doing meatless Mondays, you’re, you’re, you’re making, you’re being a part of the change. It’s like, it might be a smaller change than I think.

Dani:

The only thing that I struggle with, and I know I’ve made podcasts about this, so I know I struggle with this ex vegans. That always throws me. Cause I’m like, come on, dude, like, you know better. I know you know better. You know you know better. So I don’t know. I guess I could work on that. But that’s where I’m at.

Athena:

But I mean, no, I’m there with you 1000%. It’s very, very frustrating. And I think it’s important to realize, I think even, like, talking about this, it makes me realize, like, I could also do better, like, with my, you know, compassion towards other people and the decisions that they make. And it sucks because a lot of the, I think what usually sucks is because when an ex vegan goes or, yeah, when an ex vegan stops being vegan, they usually start talking about all the reasons why

they stopped being vegan. And that’s usually the triggering point of, like, well, I, you know, I felt like crap. And it’s like, okay, well, I saw her meals and she was eating completely raw, so that kind of makes sense. She was probably starving or like, I just, you know, I just couldn’t anymore. Because whatever the reason is, and it could be, I think it could be very triggering because we know that you can live a very healthy and sustainable life as a vegan.

So I think that’s the triggering point usually. And it’s just, it can be just hurtful. Cause like, as vegans, it is a community and it feels like we are all connected. So it can be really sad when someone kind of leaves on that note of like, yeah, I just kind of am not with it anymore.

But it is something that I think we could all work on and just being a little more accepting because at the end of the day, they’re still probably going to be eating less meat than most people, I would presume. Most people that I’ve seen, at least.

Dani:

I’ve seen some people just go like full keto right afterwards and I’m just like, and you know, when I see that, this is like a side note here. When I see somebody that bounced from like, juice cleanses to raw

food diets to intermittent fasting to, now they’re not vegan, but now they’re keto. I mean, it pisses me off when I see it. But also I do have empathy. This person is suffering. This person is grasping at straws and trying everything for whatever reason.

Maybe it’s for weight loss. Maybe they really do feel like crap. Maybe they have a condition they’re trying to cure. They’re trying everything that they can. They might be not trying them very well, but whenever I see somebody just bouncing all over the place like that, I just assume that they are really struggling. And that helps me find some empathy in that situation.

Athena:

I think that’s fair and I agree with that. And yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s a, it’s a sucky situation. We don’t, we don’t like to see the vegans go, but it is important to just focus on, you know, if we can’t eliminate all the violence, we can just try to reduce it. That’s the mission as vegans. We just want to reduce it. And having the mentality of all or nothing is just harmful. It sucks. It’s not helpful.

Dani:

All right, everybody, thank you so much for tuning into another episode of vegan proteins muscles by Brussels Radio. If you have any questions that you want answered on the podcast, you can find us on Facebook, Instagram, Instagram, YouTube, and you can always email us coacheganproteins.com.

and if you are interested in any kind of one on one vegan fitness or nutrition coaching, there is an application, right@veganproteins.com? dot. Click the button, fill it out and you will hear from us right away. Once again, my name is Dani. Im Athena and well talk to you soon.

Athena:

You couldn’t even be that I pick me up.

Dani:

Taking me for granted again.