Ep 163 – New Plant-Based Protein-Study

Giacomo:

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of vegan proteins muscles by Brussels Radio. My name is Giacomo.

Dani:

And I’m Dani.

Giacomo:

And this is episode 163.

Dani:

All right, thanks, everybody, for coming back. Look, I’m dressed. I’m dressed in, like, not sweatpants. I mean, to be fair, they’re, like, the comfiest, loosest jeans and sweater on earth.

Giacomo:

But, yeah, you tell me. Do you want me to show up in pajamas? Cause I’m all like this on camera all the time. This weekend, I set a goal for myself. I was like, giacomo, you are going to get in your pajamas as early as possible on Saturday or Sunday. It’s gonna make you relax. It did not work, but I tried. I put myself in the right environment.

Dani:

Yeah, we tried to have a very chill weekend. It’s been just like, go, go, go over here since, like, the end of January, kind of. So all good stuff, mostly. Mostly good stuff. Yeah, mostly this weekend, we both kind of like me, especially face planted.

Giacomo:

Your face planting helped me quite a bit because I just fed off that energy. Cause I was trying to chill myself. Physically, it was sort of successful mentally. Complete failure.

Dani:

Complete failure. The stress is just catching up with me. I can feel it catching up with me. I woke up on Saturday morning, and I had, like, kind of tweaked my back sleeping. Like, what? That’s new. That’s never happened before.

Giacomo:

You woke up and your back was tweaked?

Dani:

Yeah. And I told you about it.

Giacomo:

Wait a minute. Why is that? That doesn’t happen to you?

Dani:

No.

Giacomo:

Huh. Happens to me all the time, actually. Weird.

Dani:

Yeah, there’s a few other things, too. Oh, that thing on my hand is gone. I woke up yesterday just about gone. I woke up with this spot on my hand, on my palm, this red, like line that feels different, but it’s not a rash. It almost feels like I got, like, 30 splinters in there.

Giacomo:

And I had to listen to her hypothesize about maybe seven different possible outcomes of what this thing was without even giving it an opportunity to play out.

Dani:

Is it hand, foot, and mouth disease? I mean, we were in a place with a ball pita, and a kid’s swimming pool this past week. Is it shingles? It could be shingles. Just showing up in a weird place.

Giacomo:

All right, enough about your hand. We started this goal on January 1 together, and we both saw it through, and we saw it through together, and now we’re setting new goals. The goal was to get to cut together, document. It sort of did that. I think we trailed off at the end but obviously get to the end goal of finishing seeing our cut throw.

Dani:

I did a terrible job documenting it. I’m awful at that. Like, I am just a head down, do the work type of person. It sucks because I know that’s, like, what people want to see is how you actually do it, how you actually transform your physique from one thing to another. I mean, this was, like, a very moderate transformation for me. It was like 14 pound cut or something.

Giacomo:

That’s enough. That’s a fair. That’s what, 10% of your body weight, give or take?

Dani:

Oh, yeah. It’s a lot ish, I guess, but tis done now.

Giacomo:

Yeah.

Dani:

So.

Giacomo:

And I finished mine a little before you. I mean, I had less, I had a shorter goal. I think I was trying to cut, like, six to 7% of my body weight. I was going from, like, mid one hundred eighty s to, like, around 170. And I got there.

Dani:

Yeah, we both did it. Like, we both achieved it right around when we hoped to achieve it. Giacomo

wanted to celebrate with food. I was like, what are you doing? He’s like, let’s eat all this chocolate. And I was like, that is not what we’re gonna do. It is.

Giacomo:

Okay.

Dani:

It’s kind of how it went down. But, yeah, we’re, uh. We are talking about something completely different today, something that we have wanted to talk about since before we even went on the cruise. But we read about it, like, the day before we went on the cruise, so we couldn’t talk about it. And then things were crazy when we got back. So we are talking about it today, and that is this very interesting study that just came out about protein and longevity.

And I’m not totally sure exactly the format of how we’re gonna talk about this because I don’t want it to get, like, too in the weeds with the science, but, like, maybe a little. Maybe a tiny bit weedy. Anyway, go ahead.

Giacomo:

I noticed I’m on video right now, and this is my gesture for today. I’ve done it already four times on this particular episode. The whole thought around this episode is that we have been shouting to anyone who will listen, screaming, are you gonna.

Dani:

Give away the ending first?

Giacomo:

Top of the mountain.

Dani:

It is.

Giacomo:

He is that you should be exercising and eating plant based protein. Going to jectia.

Dani:

No, no, no. Go ahead.

Giacomo:

And there has been a ton of dietary dogma in the vegan community, specifically right. About plant based protein and how much to get in or what type to get in, or that you should eat a low protein diet or blah, blah, blah. And that’s part of this episode. The other part of this episode is you give me a look.

Dani:

Why don’t you go ahead and talk?

Giacomo:

Yeah, I’m gonna go ahead. I know you have an agenda. I know you have an arc here of how you wanna talk about things. Let’s hear it.

Dani:

So, historically speaking, we kind of know that caloric restriction in general leads to a longer lifespan, or I always thought this was just like something that we knew. But as it turns out, first of all, most of those studies are done on insects. Did you know that? Did you know those caloric restriction studies are done on insects?

Giacomo:

Not until I read this, no.

Dani:

Yeah, I did not know that. And then there are also some protein restriction studies that suggest longevity, and those are done on rats.

Giacomo:

I assume that most tests are done on rats. The insects were a little surprising to me, but obviously we’re not.

Dani:

Yeah, insects. So weird.

Giacomo:

I bet it wouldn’t be surprising to someone who constantly combs through animal testing, research outcomes and data collection, all that crap. For us, though. Yeah, that’s obviously not what we do. That was a bit eye opening.

Dani:

So there’s this study that came out that looked at basically protein consumption in healthy aging. And it’s a really interesting study because, like I said, it’s always just been like, taken kind of at face value that caloric restriction and protein restriction lead to a longer life. Giacomo and I have always had the.

Giacomo:

Argument that against it.

Dani:

But why? Explain why first?

Giacomo:

Well, you hear that protein will turn on and off the genes that will cause tumors, right? And there’s this whole argument that, well, if you need a reverse disease, well, maybe you should have low protein and moderate, even moderate protein, one might think could lead to a shortened lifespan because you’re building everything, not just your muscles, so it’s taxing your system and potentially feeding tumors.

Dani:

Okay, that was not my reason. My reason was because, yes, you might live longer, but if you don’t have any muscle and you can’t move out of a bed, who cares? Well, obviously that was my reason for saying, like, caloric restriction and protein restriction. Like, I don’t want to live to be 100 if after I’m 80, I’m frail and can’t move.

Giacomo:

Some people, I feel like some people. I mean, obviously no one listening to this podcast, if you’re listening to a podcast on fitness and exercise, like, obviously you’re already of the type, but I’m trying to think outside of our audience. I bet there are some people who just generally don’t want to be all that sturdy? And then we’re like, yeah, exercise and build muscle.

Dani:

Are there people who don’t want to be sturdy?

Giacomo:

I would think so. I mean, there’s gotta be people that are not looking to have, like, a very decently, like a decently high amount of lean body mass on their frame as they age. There has to be people out there that, you know, they’re okay with, like, general exercise.

Dani:

I don’t think there’s a single solitary person that wants to get blown over by a gust of wind and break a hip.

Giacomo:

Fair enough.

Dani:

I don’t. I mean, I don’t know. Guys, correct me if you know somebody that wants to grow up to be a toothpick one day. I don’t know anybody that does that. So anyway, they did this giant study, like a massive, massive study. It’s actually a study that’s still going on, the nurses Health study.

I guess it started in 1976, and there are 122,000 female nurses that are participating in the nurses health study. Now, that’s not just for this study. They use that cohort of people for all kinds of different studies. This is just one of the studies they did on that group of people.

Giacomo:

I’m still fine.

Dani:

So they took people from 1984 and 1986. So they had all this data on these women in 1984 and 1986. Basically, like, studying the data and obviously following their lifespan, you know, past that point. That was 38 years ago. 1986, Hala, if you were born then. So there were 48,762 people in 1984 and 1986 that they had this data on. So first they took those people and excluded all of the people that had. I’m sorry, eleven major chronic health conditions, which included cancer, type two

diabetes, myocardial infarction, coronary artery bypass graft surgery, heart failure, stroke, kidney failure, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, Parkinson’s, multiple sclerosis, and amytrophic lateral sclerosis, which I’m not even familiar with that last one. So they took approximately 49,000 women and excluded the people that had any of those eleven conditions. And do you know how many people were left? 3721. That is shocking. Horrifying, actually.

Giacomo:

So where are you going with this, as far as the small amount of people that were otherwise healthy, meaning no serious, ridiculous, chronic life threatening illnesses, out of that pool of 50k.

Dani:

So I just think it’s so sad. I mean, that’s so sad. Like, out of essentially 49,000 women who are nurses, by the way, who work in the health industry, only 4000 of them didn’t have one of those illnesses.

Giacomo:

Yeah, awful mind.

Dani:

Blowing.

Giacomo:

hmm.

Dani:

I mean, unless there’s something here I’m misreading, but I don’t think that I am misreading it. So then they studied those women’s food logs and then followed them along their life to see who was aging the healthiest.

Giacomo:

Right. And what do they find out, Dani?

Dani:

They found that higher protein intake did tend to lead to healthier aging. However, plant protein consumption and higher plant protein consumption specifically led to the healthiest aging. Like, that was the group that had the best results were the women who were eating the most plant protein. And one of our complaints with a lot of nutritional studies is like, okay, but they’re not.

You know, they’re talking about protein, but they’re not talking about where that protein is coming from. Like, is it coming from red meat? Is it coming from white meat? Is it coming from fish? Is it coming from plants? Because that could lead to very different outcomes. And this study actually kind of does that, which I think is pretty cool.

Giacomo:

What I also think is pretty cool is that we got this study from monthly application and strength in sports. They published it. They gave their findings, they gave their bias, they gave their interpretation of the data, which obviously we’re going to continue to do as well on this episode. What I find very interesting about this group of folks is that, yes, they have a bias towards being more involved in kinesiology, movement, exercise, training to build muscle, which

obviously requires protein intake. But no, they are not biased in terms of a plant based diet. And they are very scientific with their evidence. Based with their findings. So the other thing that’s interesting about these group of folks, which we have aligned with for a very long time now, well over a decade, is that many of them have gone plant based over the years.

Yes. And because they found enough conclusive evidence to try it themselves, and then they’ve continued to find enough conclusive evidence to stick with it because they’re getting healthier, they’re getting stronger. Then the other cool thing about it is they’re continuing to see if they can find conclusive evidence regarding a non plant based diet.

They’re not just being like, well, this is the right way. Again, they’re using a scientific method and proving this to be less wrong over time and ideally the right way to do things. So they’re not demonizing meat or chicken or poultry or fish or this or that.

Dani:

There’s a couple things they demonize. I’ll get to that. But I agree with you. I think that they do a really good job not letting their implicit bias like, cloud their judgment on the studies that they review. And I don’t know, I think that that’s very cool. I mean, these are some of the, like, best minds in the fitness world. Greg knuckles, Eric Trexler. Eric Helms and Eric Trexler and Eric helms are plant based. Eric

Helms might not be 100% vegan, but I know Eric Trexler is.

Giacomo:

I think it’s more of he doesn’t want to label it or anything like that. And also he might not be a hundred percent, but like, whatever.

Dani:

But it’s still amazing.

Giacomo:

Yes.

Dani:

Like, the people that study this stuff, probably more than anybody, all of the fitness studies, all of the nutrition studies, they just pour into them. And two of them made the decision to go plant based.

Giacomo:

I’m stuck with it.

Dani:

And this study in particular, I just think is really interesting. So I misspoke. Earlier, the 49,000 women had to not have any of those eleven conditions, but they also could not have more than one complaint about their memory. And they had to have good mental health. So the mental health probably takes up quite a bit of it there, but still, 49,000 to 4000, not great.

Giacomo:

No.

Dani:

So then they looked at how these folks were aging since 1984 and 1986, and that is where they got this data from. Now, it’s not a perfect study. I don’t even know if there is a perfect nutritional study that

exists, but it’s interesting for sure. So what they looked at to determine whether they were aging well or not, they looked at four categories, absence of chronic diseases.

So those eleven diseases we mentioned, did they still not have those? No impairments in memory, no physical function limitations, and good mental health. I think that’s pretty fair for aging. Well, you’re not sick. You have your memory, you could still move, and you have good mental health. I will be happy if I age like that.

Giacomo:

Oh, yeah.

Dani:

So that’s what they looked for here. Now I’m going to try to read this in a way that makes the most sense. So the element of healthy aging most commonly achieved in this sample was having no impairment in memory. So all of the people that ate higher protein had better memory. I guess as they got older, the next most common was having good mental health, followed by the absence of chronic diseases.

By far, the element of healthy aging least commonly achieved was the absence of physical function limitations. That means the thing that made most people have trouble with aging was the ability to move their bodies freely, as.

Giacomo:

In the number one issue with aging is that people are getting hurt or they’re unable to move because they’re not physically fit.

Dani:

More than cancer, more than heart disease. I mean, heart disease and cancer might kill more people, but not being able to move your body is going to decrease your quality of life so much. Much, you know? So I don’t know. Maybe that’s why there’s not a lot of, like, research on it is because it doesn’t kill people the same way that, like, Parkinson’s does.

Giacomo:

hmm.

Dani:

But so the point is, this kind of shows the conclusion, and I’m going to quote this here. If your goal is to maintain your health independence and function as you age, exercise is absolutely critical. For the majority of individuals in the sample, it was physical challenges, rather than cognitive or mental that were holding

them back. But also, you cannot have the muscle do the exercise if you’re not consuming enough protein. And when you had higher protein, you did better in all of those things.

Giacomo:

Right. And when we’re saying higher protein, we’re again looking at the standard formula of 1.8 to 1.2 grams per pound of lean body mass. Not looking for anything out of the ordinary here in terms of getting your protein unreasonably high. And we’re weighting it against not a low protein, plant based diet, a plant based diet that doesn’t focus on overt proteins or protein dense tofu, seitan, stuff like that. Tempeh. Like nothing, not even necessarily that many lentils, like,

oh, okay, well, you’re a plant. You’re on a plant based diet, and that’s what you do. So you’re getting in maybe seven to 10% of your calories from protein, which you’ll see that argument across the board when it comes to longevity and being super healthy, that that is the gold standard. And the further away you deviate from that, even if it’s just your protein going up, people are absolutely petrified of advocating for that or suggesting that that is an even healthier way to live.

Dani:

Yeah, agreed. So then they go on to talk about what we were talking about before the protein restriction and caloric restriction and how historically we talk about how that leads to a longer lifespan. And he goes on to explain that, basically, that’s just in a test tube, and it doesn’t actually seem to work for humans. So he talks about how the biology oriented people have always talked about protein restriction for healthy aging, but the kinesiology oriented people, that’s

movement of the body, have talked about eating extra protein for healthy aging. Basically, in this research, the kinesiologists have won, but most notably, different types of protein led to different effects. While eating more total protein was generally favorable for healthy aging, the largest beneficial effects were observed for plant protein, followed by dairy protein and non dairy animal protein, respectively. So plant proteins then, like dairy and egg and then

meat. Okay. So it was in that particular order. So, you know, again, this is where he talks about, like, you know, I’m not gonna go out there and say meat is terrible for you because obviously, and we’ve talked about this here, like, healthy meat eaters exist. We’ve seen it. We’ve seen it with our own eyes that healthy meat eaters and non vegans exist, have great blood work. But, you know, he does talk about how, like, processed meats.

Giacomo:

Yeah.

Dani:

Are terrible. Like, no way fans or butts about it.

Giacomo:

I don’t care how disciplined you are, if you have a certain whatever. Like, if you’re an omnivore, right? If anything’s on the table, you’re gonna eat processed meat. You just are the same way. Like, if you’re a vegan, you’re gonna eat vegetables. You may not eat vegetables all the time. You may not eat processed meal time. But one way or another, you’re gonna lean towards the option that is most suitable for you and most convenient for you, whether it’s going out to eat someone

else is feeding you or you’re just in the mood for something or it’s whatever you have access to right away. So vegans just tend to eat healthier in general, even if they’re not trying to. And an omnivore is going to eat processed meat, which is going to be bad for them, even if they don’t intend on doing it to some degree.

Dani:

It’S going to pop up at some point or another. But, you know, this is not a study on vegans. No, no, I don’t. I mean, probably none of these people were vegan or very, very few. So more than talking about how this is a study that talks about how bad animal protein is for you, it’s not.

It says total protein. Making it higher is good for you in general. So rather than demonizing eggs, meat, whatever, dairy, it’s more telling us that plant protein is especially good for you. It’s especially good for you.

Giacomo:

Right.

Dani:

And that could be for a bunch of reasons. Like, you just talked about that when you eat more plant protein, you kind of just eat better in general. Like, you know, he goes on, and I thought this was really neat that he went on to talk about his transition to a plant based diet and how it was more than just like, cutting meat and dairy out.

Like, he ended up eating at completely different restaurants, like going to indian restaurants, thai restaurants, rather than, you know, burger and fry joints. So the overall diet improved.

Giacomo:

Yeah.

Dani:

Eating more fiber because he’s eating more.

Giacomo:

Beans, feeling better with the types of foods that he’s eating, so he’s just eating less and making healthier choices in general. The other thing that I find very interesting about the different kinds of options. Right. There was a clear indication that plant based proteins had a beneficial effect on one’s health, whereas we already spoke about how processed meats are bad, but non processed meats like fish and eggs and meat that wasn’t processed, whatever, they’re looking

at it by saying, well, these kinds of non plant based protein sources don’t have a negative effect. They’re hypothesizing on one’s health, but they definitely don’t have a beneficial effect on one’s health like plant based proteins do. Because, again, plant based proteins, to our point here, they’re providing phytonutrients and fiber and all kinds of other good things that come along with plant based proteins, which you’re not

going to find in animal based proteins. So you’re just, you’re having this net health benefit outside of the protein in and of itself, and no negative effects. It’s a win win.

Dani:

Yeah.

Giacomo:

Yeah.

Dani:

He goes on to talk about a model that he created based on the data that’s there to say, you know, this is what is to be predicted about swapping plant protein out with the animal based protein. And as suspected, based on what’s here, the effects of healthy aging increase even more when they swap that same high protein, but animal protein diet out with a high protein, plant based diet.

And it’s just a prediction. There is no study that’s been done to do it or check it, but based on the

models, that is what could potentially be predicted. And I just think that’s amazing. So, to be fair, we can talk about some of the drawbacks of this study, because I think fair is fair.

Giacomo:

Yep.

Dani:

One, it was all women.

Giacomo:

Hmm.

Dani:

So does it have the same effect on men? Probably, but who knows? Two, it’s self reporting, which, as we know, self reporting doesn’t go particularly well. Three, we don’t know what else they’re eating, we don’t know if they’re smokers, we don’t know a lot of other things. And four, and probably my biggest, like. Hmm, question is, just because somebody was eating this way in 1984 and 1986 doesn’t necessarily mean that they still are so not a perfect study.

Giacomo:

Wasn’t a large study either.

Dani:

I mean, I think that’s a pretty freaking large study. Yeah.

Giacomo:

Okay.

Dani:

To start with, well, there’s 122,000 women in the study. There were 50,000 ish women in those years. And then of that, we got knocked down to 4000.

Giacomo:

Did it specify where the. I don’t remember.

Dani:

No. Like, where they lived.

Giacomo:

I remember reading that.

Dani:

No, I mean, I imagine it’s all over the country.

Giacomo:

Hmm.

Dani:

But, you know, I have, like I said, I have yet to see a nutritional study that is just like, wow, this is perfect. Because imagine what you would have to do to have a perfect nutritional study.

Giacomo:

You’d have to have them in a lab feeding them. And who wants to give people that level of control over what they eat?

Dani:

You’d have to have people, like, following them around their entire life. You’d have to make sure all factors were either the same or controlled or for their whole life, you know, it’s.

Giacomo:

Just not gonna work.

Dani:

Ethical, and it’s really frustrating. As somebody who wants to see those studies, like, I want to see those studies, but I recognize the limitation of pretty much most nutritional studies is stuff like that. Short of someone hovering over their shoulder to make sure they’re doing what they’re supposed to be doing, most of them are self reported. Okay. Or they’re so short term, because that’s the only way. Like, the eight week study of the. You are what you eat. Eight weeks.

Eight weeks. Come on. Like, what happens in eight weeks? Not that much. But it’s because they can only do a study for that long while controlling, like, a bunch of variables. They can’t do that for ten years. So it’s tough. But I still think pretty promising. Pretty promising data in this particular study, that it’s the only, it’s the first study I’ve ever seen that differentiates between plant protein and animal protein in high protein diets. Period.

Giacomo:

You would have to imagine, too, that they’re obviously not trying to make the broader audience that they’re trying, that they want to appeal towards happy, because the fitness world isn’t exactly giant. They’re not major proponents of plant based proteins.

Dani:

I don’t think it was fitness people who conducted this study. No, I mean fitness people who reviewed the study in this particular literature.

Giacomo:

Exactly. So, yeah. But even thinking in terms of their potential bias and their reason for publishing the study and creating an article around it, they’re not exactly winning anyone over by promoting high plant based protein.

Dani:

So here’s my take, because I know what it’s like to try to make content every month and come up with fresh ideas all the time for podcasts, YouTube, meal plans, Instagram posts, et cetera, et cetera, so on and so forth for the rest of my goddamn life. I imagine that’s how they feel, writing mass as well. Like, they need new studies to review, or they don’t have a journal, right? So they probably review every single goddamn thing that comes out. They have to.

Giacomo:

Okay.

Dani:

I mean, I don’t know. Maybe they’re coming out so fast. I’m totally wrong, and I just don’t know any better. But, I mean, they’re looking specifically for nutrition and fitness studies. I mean, the next article, I think. Hang on, we accidentally printed it. The next article in it is called, oh, did I lose it? Something like, can 30 seconds of hit really improve your cardiovascular fitness?

I don’t know because I didn’t read it yet, but I was very into reading this one, so that’s really all I got. This one’s short and sweet today. Just wanted to share this one particular study with you if you are interested in this sort of thing. Can we leave a link for mass?

Giacomo:

Oh, yeah.

Dani:

We are affiliates with mass. We have been since the day it came out. If you want to sign up every single month, you get an entire journal full of new studies. And most importantly, since most of us suck at reading studies properly, they break it down, they talk about the pros and cons, and they interpret the findings and put it into practical terms of what you could actually do going forward.

I very much look forward to seeing the intermittent fasting one, probably in the next month’s publication, because that one is just blowing up right now. And so far, I don’t think it’s very good. So I’m curious to see what they think.

Giacomo:

I really do hope that we continue to change minds. Cause I feel like this is your fight. My fight? Our fight over here, our audience. I hope those of you who are listening, it’s our hope that the vegan community, people on a planet, like, they take this more seriously, and we wind up being a little more weighted towards lifting, exercising, eating enough proteins to support muscle.

Dani:

It’s already happening. Like, I’ve already seen it change so much since we started. It’s really cool. But, yeah, I would love to see this become even more mainstream. But as I’ve seen historically in the fitness community, the nerds do something first, and then ten years later, everybody else is doing it. So the nerds have gone plant based. And I say that in the most respectful way as a card carrying member of the nerd club.

Giacomo:

So do we return to the nerdery at some point soon and get ready for the next one?

Dani:

My fellow nerds and I will retire to the nerdery with our calculators. Ten points. If you know what movie that’s from.

Giacomo:

We’re about to officially lose our entire everyone. That’s it.

Dani:

It is what it is. Oh well. All right, guys. Well, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of vegan proteins muscles by Brussels Radio. If you have any questions, feedback, comments, et cetera, you can leave them in the YouTube video or shoot us an email coacheganproteins.com dot. We would love to hear from you. And of course, if you’re looking for coaching, you want to improve your physique, get healthier, get fitter on a plant based diet.

That is all we do. So go to veganproteins.com dot, fill out a coaching application and you will hear back from one of us pretty much immediately. Once again, my name is Dani and I’m Jocko and we will talk to you soon. Bye.