Ep 171 – Men’s Body Image in Bodybuilding

Ben:

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Vegan Proteins, Muscles by Russells Radio. My name is Ben and I’m Giacomo and this is episode 171.

Giacomo:

So this is cool. This is our first time recording anything together, have we? Yeah, there hasn’t been a camera on you and me at the same time. Like not even once in this world. It is crazy because there’s literally nothing that’s not on film these days because we all have these tiny little cameras and last weekend was the first time you

compete. I got a chance to see you out there too, which was really exciting. What was your feeling? What was your overall feeling about the experience out there competing?

Ben:, Giacomo:

What did you think as far as expectations were before stepping on?

Ben:

Oh, so like before and after I mean, it’s interesting because I’ve been thinking about this moment like stepping on the stage for a while now, a couple of years. So, you know, kind of what to expect when you’ve done your research and you can kind of see videos but it’s always different doing it yourself. So you always kind of wonder like what is that gonna be like when I actually do that for myself for the first time?

So I would say that I actually didn’t have too many nerves coming into the show and I found that when I stepped onto the stage, I was more settled than I expected. There was a little bit of like shakiness and nervous energy a little bit. But once I was up there for a couple poses, I kind of felt like I settled into things and the crowd didn’t bother me at all.

It was actually kind of nice having people like cheering you on while you’re up there. I think most of the time I was just thinking like, smile, smile, smile for the judges and just trying to focus on hitting my poses the best that I could. So after I got off the stage, my first thought was like, that was a lot more fun than I thought it would be actually.

I think what I enjoy about the bodybuilding process is the process itself and not necessarily, I wasn’t sure how much I would enjoy actually stepping on the stage and the whole show day process of getting the tan and getting a polygraph and getting going backstage and pumping up and getting on the stage. And I wasn’t, I didn’t exactly know like, how am I actually gonna like this?

Am I gonna like it or not? And it was really fun, like meeting all the people meeting the Tanners, meeting the promoter, meeting all my competitor, fellow competitors backstage. I enjoyed getting to make more connections and I actually did quite enjoy being up there on the stage. So when I got off, I was like, that was fun. I would do that again.

Giacomo:

It’s crazy to me that it’s May and you’re going to be competing with plant built in October because that’s a tall order for one year. That’s a lot. But you have a whole plan about this and I mean, your body, hopefully your body will cooper and all that and already set it set in stone. Huh?

Ben:

Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting because I had initially, like you said, just kind of planned to do the fall shows and then I was finding like, hey, I feel like I’m possibly gonna be close to ready by the time the spring rolls around as the prep had been going like pretty well. I was dropping weight faster than expected and all the signs were there that my body was holding up pretty well.

So I thought why not just get some stage experience in the spring? So I kind of get all the first show jitters and nerves out of the way and you only get this lean every couple years every so often for most competitors. And I figure why not? You know, even if I’m not 100% ready, that’s ok because I have the later shows to be 100% ready for. You can’t possibly be 100% at every single show.

And so I’m like, what shows matter most to me and Mr America competing with Plant Built and the WNBF World Championships at the end of the year, which is in Boston this year. like those are the two shows that really, when I asked myself what matters the most, it was those ones. So I said, why not, you know, hop in some spring shows, get my feet wet in, in bodybuilding and then, see how it goes.

I think it’s also a good experience to see. Ok, what is it like trying to do a spring season and a fall season? Because if I have competitors that I’m coaching myself, that would be good to be able to relate to them or to be able to convey like here’s what I struggled with or here’s what I found to be helpful. So I’m kind of treating it all as a learning experience. I’m self coached so that’s another kind of like layer to, to things. So, I really, I think my personality suits myself to being

self coached in some ways just because I am a little bit of a control every body builder on the planet essentially. But I think also something that I’m ok with like I’m ok with, I don’t have a problem admitting when I made mistakes and like learning from that. And I find a lot of value in the fact of saying like, ok, I didn’t do this right. And I can accept that if I had a coach, maybe I would have done things better. But that’s ok because I’m learning from it as a result.

Ben:, Giacomo:

And that’s something again, that’s like a powerful tool, not only for my own process, but for, teaching that to you ever work with another person to have them help you call the shots regardless of like

programming and all that, to have that kind of support from another person.

Ben:

I think in the future, I would definitely consider it. I think, like I said, a lot of the reason that I like being self coached is because I’m ok with making mistakes and I’m ok like bodybuilding to me is not, at least it’s not 100% about the outcome. So I, I do want to bring my best and I think having an outside perspective would help with that. But at where I’m at in my journey, I think I’m ok also with like making some mistakes and saying like, oh, well, learn from this and this will make me

better in the future. But yeah, I think like objectively, it does help to have some that outside perspective. Like I, if anyone was coming to me and saying, hey, should I like coach myself through a bodybuilding season? I’d be like, no, not at all. But, I’ve spent a large, large portion of my free time over the past couple of years, just like, I love listening to podcasts and watching videos.

And so I’ve made sure that I’ve done, enough self education so that I could coach myself, through this process. But I think it would be, quite ignorant of me to say that I would be able to do a better job than one of, you know, a really well known like prep coach or, something like that.

Giacomo:

Yeah. your mind, everything, everything is all completely set on your path in competing and it’s not rightly. So obviously you’re in it when you take, I don’t want to see a break, but when you take a break from your competition season, you break it up between spring and fall. Any ideas on what you’re going to do that is non body builded and non work related. Any fun ideas?

Ben:

That’s a good question. I think most of it for me comes back to what do I feel like I was not able to do as much in this time period? Like when I’m in a prep, what is some of the things that tend to fall off a little bit? And how can I kind of give back to those areas during that time period? So for me, the primary things that come up is just like having more time and energy to give to other people those around me.

So, one of the hardest aspects is the fact that, a lot of things that you might do socially don’t always align with a bodybuilding competition prep, that you might do like, in an off season or something like that. So maybe that’s, yeah, going out for meals with people. But also sometimes you just maybe don’t have the energy to spend a whole day out, like, doing stuff because then you got to pack all your meals with you.

You gotta think about, ok. Did I get my training in for the week or do I need to go train today? You might have like steps or cardio that you have to get done. You might be like, hey, I can, I know I’m good for like two or three hours. But after that, I’m just gonna start being cranky and miserable and people are not gonna want to be around me. So I think oftentimes it’s about like, I know that during

these other time periods, I just don’t have the mental capacity, the physical capacity to

give my 100% to my friends, my family. You tend, I, at least for myself, I’m already kind of a a home bo and an introvert. And so I’m already kind of like, I love spending time with myself and I think prep makes me even more like that and even more kind of like drawn in.

So I really am looking forward to slash planning on using that time to make sure that I am, saying like, hey, let’s, let’s go out and, and do some things, with the people who are close to me and trying to, involve them more and kind of my day to day.

Ben:, Giacomo:

So I would say that would be the, the main thing, ok, maybe we’ll do like an escape when we hunt together.

Giacomo:

Yeah, that would be fun. The con conversation around your competition is pretty interesting because I feel like there’s gonna be a lot that we can talk about just from your experience now and what you’ll learn after the fact that is directly related to our conversation today, which is about body image with men. Specifically, I know speaking from personal experience, I liked to have the conversation with mostly complete confidence that bodybuilding was something that

helped me heal as far as I was concerned with my body image. But that’s not entirely true. A lot that I repressed is a lot that I didn’t admit to myself and others. And I created this kind of conversation that was somewhat of a lie because if anything bodybuilding hurt me in a lot of ways, it taught me, it did help me gain more confidence and and it, it highlighted what I felt uncomfortable about as far as my body image goes, but it definitely created some issues too.

So I’m kind, I am super curious to see how you come out of this season and how you’re gonna feel after the fact about how you view body image in general and how you see your body honestly, you know, the prep goggles, I feel like that stuff definitely sits with you after the fact, even after your body is back to normal, even if your brain is working properly, even after the pressure is off to do all this stuff because you lacked perspective because you were in the middle of prepping and

competing. You can’t just undo all of that stuff. Like it kind of just plays out after the fact, speaking from personal experience. So I am super curious to see how it’s gonna play out with you and what your experience has been right now. Getting to this point.

Ben:

Yeah, it’s interesting because I think growing up, I didn’t think a ton about my body or how it looked. I think I wasn’t super concerned with my weight necessary. I do remember there were some times maybe in like elementary and middle school where I maybe got like teased or poked and prodded by

just being like a little bit on the chubbier side.

But it was nothing ever anything like crazy. I was maybe a little overweight but I was not obese and it was not something that really weighed on me. But I do remember there were some instances where maybe I was teased and felt a little bit bad. But, I think once I got kind of got to high school again, it wasn’t something that I taught thought about a ton.

Like, I was always somewhat active growing up. Like, I tried out a lot of sports, soccer, baseball, basketball. I played football for a couple of years. Never really loved any of them, until I found ultimate frisbee in high school. And that was awesome. I did that for many years, but I never really thought too much about my body other than the fact that I was like, eh, I don’t love the way that it looks, but it’s like, ok, like, it’s not something again that I really think about that

often unless it was, I do distinctly remember once I got to kind of like the high school age, going to the beach or I was a lifeguard and I remember like taking my shirt off as a lifeguard was something that I was not super comfortable with and I did not like, and being on the swim team as well. and during the summer, so I remember not enjoying, that aspect of it, especially like, if I would see other swimmers who were like a lot leaner than me or like had, maybe had built a little bit more

muscle. That was something where I would, I am thinking back now and was like, yeah, I think I felt a little bit self conscious there. but I didn’t really start thinking about it more until I got into fitness and fitness for me was not necessarily, didn’t start out as, oh, I want to change my body because I really don’t like the way that I look. And it was more about the fact that I was studying exercise science in school and I picked up a book by, do you know Mike Matthews.

he runs Legion, the, the supplement company. So he had wrote a couple books. Bigger Leaner Stronger was one of the books and my dad had bought it and I was, kind of home for the summer in between my sophomore and junior year of college and I looked at it and I was like, this actually might be a good thing for me to kind of, like, read and learn about, because I was planning on being a physical therapist or at least working in some sort of like sport or exercise related field.

And so I was like, ok, some strength training, like, probably be good to learn a little bit about that. So I read through that book and obviously there’s a large nutritional component to it too and weighing all your food. And I was like, oh, this is crazy. Like, I don’t know about a lot of this. but then I kind of thought about, thought about it and I’m like, well, I don’t necessarily like, love my physical appearance and it’s not something I’ve never been super confident in.

So maybe I’ll just try this out and like, see how it goes, the whole meal plan thing, the, the diet, the nutrition, the training and I’m somebody that when I decide I’m gonna do something, I’m like, all in, like straight from the go, like, snap my fingers. I’m completely changing everything and I’m doing it. So I started following a meal plan.

Super strictly. I started training, going to the gym all the time. There were so many things that I was doing that were not healthy, like having a very rigid view of food, fasting for periods throughout the day. and that led to its own host of issues. But I think that process, I, I dieted for about three, four months and then I got a, like a six pack or an eight pack for the first time and I was pretty lean.

I was probably like close to single digit body fat at, at that point, but not like almost no muscle. So it

wasn’t the look that I was after. But I think getting that for a couple of years skewed the way that I felt about myself because then I started to identify as this, like lean guy, especially in college when people saw me undergo this transformation and then they’re like, I’m either getting compliments or people are like, wowed by it.

you know, going to parties here or there and having people like come on, take your shirt off, take your shirt off, that sort of thing. So I think that played into the body image conversation for me. And then what really, I think started to bring me back to more of a healthy place was probably two years after that, almost coming up on like two years of training.

Finding like out that natural bodybuilding was a thing that existed. How did you find out? I think I just saw a youtube video either from like 3D MJ or V stronger. And I watched like, I think it had a podcast with somebody who I was somewhat interested in like it was on my youtube recommended.

Giacomo:

So another question were you in, were you dabbling in the idea of going enhanced because that was all that there was and you were interested in sport or even interested in sport, all of that?

Ben:

Yeah, I think so a little bit. Yeah, but II I was following a lot of more kind of like fitness influencer types and a lot of those people are kind of cross over into like the, they’re maybe taking something to enhance their physique. And so they might collaborate a lot with people who are like enhanced bodybuilders. And so that was the only world that I was familiar with.

So, like you said, then I found, but I was actually into like the whole, like science based evidence based thing at the same time. So it was this weird kind of like dichotomy where I was learning about some things that were like more evidence based, learning from like a Jeff nipper or, you know, the Mike Matthews is how I, how I started, which and I’d say he’s in that realm.

And then I kind of got away from that and started following more of these like, influencer types and kind of stopped learning as much about training and was kind of more just interested in like lifestyle and like, I was really into nutrition and learning about nutrition, but I didn’t really focus too much on training until I kind of realized that like, ok, this natural bodybuilding thing exists and it’s something that I can do.

I think it actually might have been an interview with like Doug Miller. That was like, how I got introduced to it, which is interesting. And then once I found out that natural bodybuilding was a thing, I was like, oh, this is really cool. Like I thought about, I really like the idea of bodybuilding and maybe competing in it someday.

But I didn’t realize there was an option to this naturally. And then I started realizing how important training was. And I looked at my physique and I thought, OK, I want to get to where I want to be where I want to compete someday. I need more muscle and I need to stop trying to stay so lean all the time.

Giacomo:

So, is it more sport related than body image related as far as you getting into changing the way that you look? Was it?

Ben:, Giacomo:

Did it have anything to do with how your buddies were talking about or like the way that they looked or, or commenting on you or anything about how you personally felt initially or kind of after a couple of years of getting into training, I don’t know.

Ben:

You tell me, I think initially it was kind of just a curiosity of like, can I do this? Can I actually like get lean? Is this something that I have? Because I always kind of was like, oh, this is my body and this is just who I am and how I look and it is what it is. But then I’m like, I think what changing my body that first time like doing that kind of diet and getting, you know, a six pack.

I was like, oh, if I put an X in input, I get this output. And that really appealed to me as somebody who is more kind of like scientifically minded. So once I saw that, then I think at that point, it started to become more about the body. Like I was thinking about body image a lot more from like an aesthetic perspective. And I think I just grew accustomed to looking that way, kind of like how I had grown accustomed to looking the other way and I was scared to lose it, like, oh, I’ve put all in

all this work in order to get this point. I don’t want to lose it, because I knew that I would be able to get it back again. But at the same time I, for some reason I felt like attached to, the way that I was looking there. And so what really broke me out of that was thinking about what my long term goals were. And I said to myself, like, if you want to compete in bodybuilding, that’s when I think it, it changed to like this started to become a lot healthier shift in my mind was like, if you want to

be competitive in bodybuilding, you need to build some muscle and you need to stop trying to stay lean all the time. And it was that moment where I said, ok, I’m gonna commit to being in a surplus and doing a bulk even if it’s a little scary. And I’m really gonna start focusing on my training and like progressive overload. Getting back to that because for there was a period of time where my lips were kind of just stalling out.

And I should have taken that as a sign that I was trying to stay too lean. But I, I instead I said, no, I’m just gonna throw out the log book and just train for, train, for fun and train for enjoyment, which, you know, whatever it, it, it was what it was at the time. But then I, I think I matured a little bit and realized that maybe I was hiding from some of these things that I didn’t want to admit to myself.

And that was kind of the start of me changing the way that I felt about my body and going. I, I really do think that going through process of like intentional controlled weight gain and focusing on like the training performance in the gym and how you’re feeling and how you’re performing. going through

those periods over and over, like the, the bulking and the cutting of the building and the fat loss, however you wanna, whatever terms you want to use.

I think that that has made me appreciate that I can look at my body and not feel any sort of way about it, whether I’m peak off season, peak bulk or like shredded. Like, I can appreciate aspects of both of those. and I actually like having gotten the leanest that I’ve ever been. It’s funny, but I actually like the way my body looks more when I’m kind of bulked up than I do right now.

I think a lot of people compete because they’re like, oh, the shreds, like that’s really what I care about. No. Like, I actually like the way I look more and I feel better and I perform better and my like, life is more balanced, like competitive bodybuilding is no joke. And people, I think if you’re hopping into it for the wrong reasons, it’s you’re setting yourself up for a really, like not a good place post show.

So getting back to your question about when the season is over, I don’t really anticipate it being too difficult for me to go back to the way I was in my off season. I think I just want to get back to enjoying my training, more and seeing the I’m, that’s why I love bodybuilding. I love the progression. I love the aspect of, hey, I can show up today and, and check off all these little boxes and know that I got that little bit better and that’s gonna add up over time.

And I’m looking forward to seeing what I can do in my next off season. Obviously, right now, I’m focused really on what is the task at hand and that’s the rest of this year and whatever that holds. But I can also like be like, it’s not going to be hard for me to let go of, of this physique after it served its purpose and I’m ready to move on to the next phase.

So that’s how I feel about it right now. At least who, who knows? You know, I’m never gonna assume that I can know how I’m gonna feel in six months from now, but that’s where I’m at currently.

Giacomo:

Ok. All right. Fair enough. I do think that bodybuilding can give you a much more of a realistic outlook on what is actually possible and what your body composition is. I feel like when it comes to societal pressures for men to be big or to weigh a certain amount or to like when they compare themselves to others, all that stuff just puts men and young boys in a position where they do things to their body that they shouldn’t because of that insecurity of what they feel like they need to

look like or what they think they could look like. And that’s all, it’s a shame unfortunately, because you don’t have to put your body through all through the ringer like that. But you see these athletes who are larger than life where you try to emulate a specific look and now before you know it, you’re what, 58 trying to be 195 large or whatever as an example.

And in reality, you, you have like what you, you weigh £20 more than you should and you’re disillusioned yourself and now you’re unhealthy essentially. And on top of it all, you don’t know how to get out of it. You don’t know what you actually should look like as a coach, you can see that right? When you take someone and you can see what they thought they should look like and what they worked for or what they were afraid to look like when they show up and you’re like, ok, you weigh X amount,

your body looks like this. This is what you wanna look like and then you have to judge and be like, ok, well, this is where you’ve missed the mark. And as a bodybuilder, I think it gives you really realistic viewpoint of what you actually should look and can look like. And without it, it can be a little tough, it can be a little challenging to, to and, and it hurts too to see people what people do to their bodies.

And this, you know, from the control standpoint, obviously, there are plenty of people out there who have body images, securities and issues that, that have, that don’t have the control that they, you know, they, they don’t, they can’t, they, they’re not empowered to make the change they want. But I’m talking to people who like know what they wanna look like and they make all these kinds of moves and they’re afraid to make the right moves and they’re, they’re completely

dysmorphic about what what their body is actually capable of. That’s what I think is like, there’s an interesting connection right there between body building and, and you see, and you could use it with like this an air of confidence like I am 4% body fat or I can put on another £20 of muscle from here or I look this way and it’s like, no, not necessarily.

Ben:

It’s, it’s funny because I feel like I hear a lot of women talking about, I want to get back to this certain weight that I was in college or in high school or they just have like a number in their head that was all, like, just became a number for one reason or another. And I feel like guys have that but almost the opposite way, like I just need to get to £200.

Like, once I get to £200 like that’s gonna be when my physique looks like the best it’s gonna be or like that’s when I’m gonna be super muscular. And then, you know, you diet some of the weight off and you realize, ok, maybe I was not putting as on as much muscle as I thought I was or you get to that 200 you’re like, oh, this doesn’t look the way that I thought it was gonna look.

And I think it’s maybe because you get a lot of people who or you get a lot of guys who come into the fitness space and they maybe were that like skinnier guy growing up who got bullied, kind of, you know, the opposite of someone who’s maybe overweight they got bullied for and like a rail or a twig and you know, that’s not healthy either. Like they’re both neither of them are, are good things.

And so maybe that is the person who ends up way overdo it with on that end of the spectrum because they’re like, I gotta eat everything just to get there as, as fast as possible. And I think, that is something that is universal is like in terms of what I see people feeling trapped in the bodies that they’re in and wanting to get out of that as soon as possible.

And that leading to either rapid weight loss or weight gain that just kind of exacerbates those body issues. So I’m not sure if that’s something that you’ve noticed as well. But I think oftentimes you have to emphasize like, hey, we, we, we’re going to make these changes, but it’s not gonna happen overnight. And like, neither is healing the way that you feel about yourself and your body.

Like that stuff takes time, like it’s taken me year like a couple of years to get to the point now where I can appreciate how my body looks at all these different stages. And not really necessarily like attach or identify with it, which is, is especially important for like somebody who’s a competitive bodybuilder is to not identify or attach yourself too much to your physique and how you look.

And oh, I don’t feel good about myself when I’m in my off season. I only feel like good about myself when I’m in my prep and, that leads people to compete too often and that has its own set of issues because maybe you don’t look, maybe year after year after year you’re competing, competing, competing and you just kind of end up either looking the same or maybe even looking worse, you know, over time because you don’t give your body that chance to recover.

But, I did wanna ask you, what was your experience like growing up was like body image? Was that something that you, that you thought about and did that play into like getting into sports and athletics and bodybuilding and all that? I don’t think I’ve really talked to you too much about that in your personal journey.

Ben:, Giacomo:

So I’d be curious to hear where you’re coming from with all this so much different than your experience.

Giacomo:

I went to an all boys Roman Catholic high school and back then when third spaces were a lot easier to come by and you would go out to nightclubs, everyone cared about what they looked like and it was all about looking a certain way and going out there and having muscle so that you could feel confident when you showed up at the club, looking the way that you looked.

We were very, very, very hung up on our looks in high school and I fell right into that and I don’t know if I would have fallen into that. We’ll say trap if I wasn’t bullied before high school because I feel like that played into my body issues. I had family stuff too. My family is also incredibly hung up on their looks. That’s just a part of who they are at their absolute core.

My dad’s family is all like that a lot. They really, really care about image and appearance and there’s a lot of beauticians in my family and all that. So the idea of looking a certain way and also the idea of more than just athleticism showing up a certain way amongst your peers wasn’t even about necessarily dating and being attractive. Well, that was a part of it.

Yeah, all of that, all of that. So that was, there were a lot of pressures on me as a child and I had a lot of a ton of insecurities and I still fight with some of those insecurities to this day actually. And I definitely think all of those things messed with my judgment and perception about what I need to do. I mean, I’ve been as heavy as £230. I’ve been mentally unwell and sick at like 100 and, you know, sub 140 essentially.

So I’ve gone through all kinds of body stuff like crazy. Even when I was at my healthiest and I blame a lot of that on my environment both at home and in the world. And then I think some of it just, well, you know, but it’s not all doom and gloom. It’s not all feeling ashamed about stuff. It’s also the reason why I got into sports and I felt really comfortable with them because they gave me a place where I had like, you, you have your control, you can do what you want with your body.

It was actually in fact, a place of healing for me in that way because that was something that was just mine. No one could take it away from me and I got into it more and more and enjoyed it more and more. And over time I did learn, you know what my body was capable of. And that was a matter of just getting there. But I’d be lying if I said there weren’t regrets along the way and there weren’t reasons why those things happened. So my childhood was much, much different than yours. Danny likes

to joke that when she met me, I’ll stereotype myself as a Guido. She called herself the Guido Exorcist because I’m this Italian American boy hanging out in Brooklyn, going out to clubs, wearing a gold chain, blah, blah, blah. And I had this like crunchy kind of vibe to me when I met her because I was kind of moving past that time in my life. That was a form of me and she’s like, that’s not you and we’re gonna take you out of that. But anyways, yeah, that was what it was like for me.

Ben:

That is quite a bit different. And I’m wondering what, what are some of those regrets that you have that you mentioned in terms of how things I don’t know if that’s something that you’re comfortable talking about or are willing to talk about. But, and then I know earlier you mentioned that bodybuilding in some ways helped that, but in other ways didn’t help that so much. So I would love to know both sides of that spectrum as well.

Giacomo:

OK, let’s think about this regrets are that I went down this path where I did more to my body than I should have gained more weight that I should have lost more weight that I should have stressed that myself out sick over the way that I needed to look and missed the mark in a lot of ways because it was emotional more so than a purely scientific method where I could get to where I wanted to be.

It was all emotion driven most of it. So there’s a lot of regret there. I still love how it feels and what I’m chasing because that would be untrue to myself if I chased that. But because it was so emotion driven, I think I made a lot of bad moves and I think things could have played out a lot differently. There was a lot of clean up after the fact that I had to do to get my body and my eating habits.

And the way I trained in all of it, like planning wise, that that could have been a lot different. Had I taken a different approach? So, but I don’t have any regrets getting into bodybuilding. I absolutely love it.

Ben:, Giacomo:

Trying to remember the other two things you asked you were asking about memory kind of like how did, how did bodybuilding help and then how did it kind of hurt your body image in in different ways?

Ben:

And also when did you kind of get into bodybuilding? Was that around the time? I imagine it was, I mean, I know how you did we met on the vegan bodybuilding.com forums. So it must have been a couple years after that or a couple of years before you met Danny that you were getting into that, but you were still kind of in that world that you mentioned growing up. So it’s interesting how those two, I’m curious how those two might have intersected or interplay with each other.

Giacomo:

No, I got into Bible when I was like 15. OK. Very young age super into it. I ate up all those magazines that they were using to market the classic supplements of old and the whole lifestyle and bodybuilding culture and gym culture and all that. There was plenty of that with the neighborhood kids that I was hanging out with and the stuff that I was doing.

I did want to get better at sports, I wanted to make a sport team. So I wind up playing tennis, which I know is not training at the gym, gave me more confidence and gave me some athletic capabilities to play sports. It wasn’t purely for body image. I, I don’t have any regrets there. I’m really happy that I was an athlete growing up because even though I might have missed a mark as far as what my body looked like, I wouldn’t have been able to do what I did.

I wouldn’t be, I wouldn’t have the opportunity to progress. Now, I wouldn’t be as healthy as I am now, if I did not have that kind of head start. So in that particular way it helped.

Ben:

And when was your first competitive bodybuilding season?

Giacomo:

2002?

Ben:

So how long was that after, was that after you met Danny or did you competed at that point?

Giacomo:

I met Danny and dance like six years later.

Ben:

Oh, wow. So you competed pretty early then? No. Yep. How old were you for that first?

Giacomo:

21?

Ben:

Ish 21? Ok. What was that experience? Like? Did that change the way that you felt about yourself? And did you end up like, did you get, I don’t know, did you have a coach? Like, did you end up getting like, really lean for that or was it kind of just like, hey, I’m gonna, what’s this competitive body? But thing and then you jump on stage and you’re like, oh, I’m not lean enough. Like, yeah, what was that like for you?

Giacomo:

Oh, gosh. I saw an advertisement for Doctor Joe Cleme at the back of a natural body building magazine to this day I have regrets that I did not pay the $800 for a bodybuilding competition coach back then because boy would, life have been different. Oh, my gosh. But I didn’t have resources. Is I had this dream. I needed to follow it on my own and carve my own path.

That’s just the way it went down when I was doing my thing back then. And I had conviction. So I did it and I completely self coached. It was complete trial and error just like literally just pulling out foods and looking at calorie labels and plugging them into a spreadsheet. Having no concept of how much does she eat or this or that or what. Just like trying to piece together different information that I saw eat X amount protein per gram, X amount of grams are pounded by all the random

things. Just stringing it together and losing weight essentially. And then I hopped on stage and then I was backstage in between the prejudging and the finals and they look at me and they’re like, ok, you got your music. I’m like, what music? And they said for your routine. I said what routine? And they said you’re gonna do a 62nd routine tonight.

I said, I’ll be right back. I went to my girlfriend’s house and I started counting music and I picked a song out and I started making random poses and I didn’t have a care in the world. Seriously. I was completely carefree back then. Fortunately for me and I came back with the routine and I did it. So the whole thing was just strung together after the fact it did, it went about as well as you could expect.

My family wanted to feed me. I probably gained like about 15 £20 inside a couple weeks. Now. That’s an exaggeration. But you get the point and I didn’t come back to the stage again until after I met Danny right around 2009 because there was just not an opportunity. There was a afterwards so much went wrong and things could have went a lot differently. Put it that way.

Ben:

Was that in an attempt to, would you or I should actually say was like, when you say so many things

went wrong, was that spurred on by competing or was that kind of just unrelated? And that happened like, oh, I got, you know, I gotta make all these improvements. So I have to like, do these extreme things in order to, to make these improvements or was it kind of just, no, like I did the bodybuilding thing? That’s cool and this kind of other stuff popped up. And so then that made it.

Ben:, Giacomo:

So it was not a good time to compete in all body image related.

Giacomo:

I felt like I couldn’t do it again and I wanted to do it better and I struggled with the fact that I put on weight afterwards and I was uncomfortable with it. And I was like, well, if I can’t be more muscular, I’m just gonna be skinnier. So I just legit crying shame if you asked about you to remember the conversation. I legit tried to lose my muscle on purpose because I’m like, this is too much of a pain. I feel like a failure. I can’t do this. I might as well look good if I can’t look good with

muscle on me because this is a pain in the butt and I don’t know what, what I’m doing. I’m just gonna lose muscle and just be a skinny dude and I’ll feel comfortable like that. So I had like severe image issues and I think competing definitely cast a spotlight on them. I mean, they were there before, but competing definitely took it to the next level. It’s not like it is nowadays where there’s too much information, but there is also the right information out there. Fortunately.

Ben:

And what did it take to kind of heal from that?

Giacomo:

Taking a lot of time to learn to do it to, I mean, I competed again. I don’t, I wouldn’t say that I did it well back in 2009. I mean, that’s the whole reason why we did all start all this. We Dan and I learned how to do this stuff together really, really well. And through that learning experience, we learned how to take better care of ourselves, whether we competed or not. So, a lot of work over a very long time, it’s been 15 years doing this stuff and like 6 to 8 years alone, out of those 15

coaching. So we basically took our desire because she’s, she’s gone through her own stuff as well. And we took all of our own personal issues and we found solutions by learning how to help others and learning more about what to do. So that didn’t have to make the same mistakes we did and obviously we turned it into a whole thing. Yeah.

Ben:

No, it’s a really powerful mission when you’ve gone through that yourself. And you say, like, I wouldn’t wish it upon anyone to go through what I’ve gone through here and it drives you forward. And I think there’s something to be said about the confidence that you gain from feeling competent in something. And sometimes it’s, you just can’t get to that point until you’ve gone through it and you’ve made the mistakes and you’ve come out the other side and then you’ve said like, all

right, I wish I had done things differently. But now I know and I’m empowered by the fact that I was able to like navigate those hurdles and navigate those challenges and look where I’m at now and look how far I’ve grown. And I think that that gives you that confidence to kind of carry forward and hopefully help others as well. At least I can say that from my own experience.

Like now the fact that my body image, it does feel like it’s out of place that’s so healthy. Like when I see people who are struggling, I’m like, I want to help that person, I want to kind of like share with them. What I’ve gone through and what I’ve seen other people go through and let them know that they’re not alone in this and that they will get through it.

And I can say that not only in my professional life in that context, working with clients and helping people, but also just in my personal life and my day to day interactions, like I think there is something that’s so strong about when you feel good in your own body, how that comes across in the way that you carry yourself and the way that you interact with the rest of the world and other people.

And I can say that I definitely feel like there was maybe some, I wanna say a lot of the confidence issues that I felt, I think subconsciously were related to the way that I felt about my own physical appearance. Like not necessarily I can remember growing up, I never liked the way that clothes fit on me. I remember that being a big thing. Like, the small doesn’t feel great.

This medium doesn’t feel great. Every kind of just sits in a weird way and I don’t like picking out clothes for myself. So I literally just said, like mom, can you pick out some shirts for me or like some, some pants or whatever? Like, I really don’t think I bought my, I really like started choosing my own clothing until I was in late middle school, high school.

I would just like be like, can you just go to Old Navy and get me some shirts or whatever or something like that? And then even when I was in high school, I would just like pick whatever off the rack. Like I didn’t really care. I it was just like a plain, you know, solid color T shirt. But I remember, I think I got, I, I do remember like somebody teasing me for like the jeans I was wearing in middle school or something like that, like saying they were mom jeans or whatever and I was, I do

remember that and I remember just like not loving the way shirts fit on me. And I think that was one thing that clothes fit me so much better now. And I remember having this feeling of like for the first time in my life, I actually feel good about, like, going out in public and, like, looking a certain way and that wasn’t necessarily related to having a six pack or having big muscles.

It was just like my clothes fit a little bit better and now I actually feel excited to wear these things and that comes across and when you’re interacting with people. So that was, I think a, a big one for me. I’m not sure if you have anything that you can relate to when it comes to that. But Oh, totally.

Giacomo:

Yeah. Yeah. I didn’t start buying my own clothes. I was in high school as well. Actually similar. Yeah, similar paths there.

Ben:

Anything that you feel like we haven’t really touched on or hit on in terms of social media, I was gonna say like societal perspective, social media, like I feel like it is it’s kind of the cliche thing to be like, oh social media. It’s like this evil thing that is ruining all of our body image. And I mean, it’s hard to deny that it has a really big impact on the way that people feel about themselves, especially if you’re consuming a lot of content related to fitness and people are

throwing their, their, you know, half or almost fully naked bodies up on the internet for everyone to see all the time and you’re getting bombarded with those images constantly. So if that’s all you see, it can be easy to start to think that that is how the world is and it skews your perception of what is average and what is normal. And, in some ways you gotta just touch grass and go out in the world and, and see that most people just, their bodies are their bodies and they don’t

necessarily think a lot about it. And, yeah, you know, maybe they might have some things that they want work on from a health perspective, lose some way to get healthy so that they can play with their kids or that they can be around for a long time and continue to be functional as they get into older age. But I think most people, like, they don’t really spend a lot of time thinking about their bodies necessarily.

And in the way that somebody who spends a lot of time on social media consuming this kind of content is probably constantly thinking about that 20 47. And I think that that is something that can be easy to get sucked into. And so I know for myself that putting some, I guess limits on who I was following and how those people are making me feel about myself was something that was very helpful and just kind of doing a social media audit for myself and saying like, ok, these are the people I’m

following when I consume their content. How are they making me feel about myself? And is that something that I need to work on or is it might, maybe just helpful to say, I’m gonna let this person go in terms of where they are in, in my sphere. And again, it’s easier said than done because you’ll keep getting recommended these things and the more you click on them, the more they get thrown your way.

So that’s, that’s the algorithms and that’s the things that you know, it’s probably not gonna change. So we just have to find ways to, to deal with it and, and to cope with it.

Giacomo:

So it’s crazy being on this side of it now with you, how you and I know just how much goes into having the right kind of lighting, having the right kind of filtering, having the right kind of professional equipment to shoot, having the right kind of messaging stage, all of it, all of it, stuff if you’re not on the performance side of it and you’re just seeing it. Could you imagine? I know it’s hard to think about because we know too much compared to someone who’s just consuming whatever,

you know, a short reel or this or that or just seeing an image of someone, imagine being on the other side of that and not being familiar with any of it and thinking about what that could do to somebody’s psyche without them even realizing, seeing someone polish in that way, portraying themselves a certain way.

Ben:, Giacomo:

And then imagine being on our side and trying to explain that that’s hard, teenagers, young kids, people who just don’t know any better.

Ben:

It’s like, that’s the time that you’re the most suggestible and open to things and you have the least developed critical thinking skills out of anyone who is on those platforms. So you can see why a lot of people fall into an early age. And I wouldn’t, I think about people who are raising kids and growing up with social media and it’s like, how do you, yeah, it’s a, that’s a, that’s a whole other conversation that that could be had.

Giacomo:

Cool. I feel like we touched upon most of, I mean, do you have anything, any parting thoughts?

Ben:

Not really other than that, if you body image is something that you’re struggling with, you’re not alone, like most people at some point in their lives, struggle with that and a lot of people for a lot of their life, struggle with that. So you’re not alone, reach out to somebody if you’re struggling and most of the time it helps to talk to somebody about it, whether that be a friend, a family member.

Sometimes some like maybe it’s someone who you’re like, not as close with, but you just know because they’re, they live or they, you know, they’re, they’re not as emotionally invested or involved and just saying like this is something I’m struggling with can be helpful. I mean, that’s part of the reason that maybe like a therapist or a counselor can help, they’re not emotionally involved in your life, but they can kind of provide that objective outside perspective.

Even though like as coaches, we’re not qualified to give certain advice or deal with certain things, like most of the people that come to us have some degree of body image thing that they need to work through. And so oftentimes we’re kind of just relating to them or reflecting back some of the things that we’re hearing and letting them

know that it’s a common experience that they’re not alone and that’s really helpful just, just to hear that. So I’d say that’s probably the one thing that I would want to say.

Giacomo:

Well, thanks so much. Everyone for tuning in to another episode of vegan proteins. Muscles by Brussels radio. Keep up to date and stay in touch with us at vegan proteins at muscles by Brussels. Hit the contact button on vegan proteins.com and one of us will respond to you right again, right away. Once again, my name is Giacomo. Ben. We’ll talk to you soon.