Ep 181 – Orthorexia: The Healthy Eating Disorder

Ben:

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Vegan Proteins Brussels by Brussels Radio.

Ben:, Ben:

My name is Ben and I’m Dani this is episode 181.

Dani:

So did you and Giacomo when you guys just record, you, you guys are getting these backwards. But did you and Giacomo talk about your current training at all?

Ben:

We didn’t talk about training so much. We talked about when was the last time I competed? And what is my next show slash shows? We didn’t get too much into specifics, but we did talk about the fact that my last show was two or three weeks ago. You might probably not gonna be able to see, but I still got a little tan here that you commented on. So sometimes it’s like I’ll find, I still have a little patchy something here or there.

It comes off in spots. It’s funny like the first week or two after the tan starts coming off, I feel like I look like I have some sort of disease or something because I’m all like spotted. Like I actually quite like how it looks in the couple of days afterwards before it peel it off. It’s just like, oh, I just look like you got a nice tan. not like when you’re dark, dark on stage, but right after that, but then soon it starts to, to fade and then it’s like you still got the slight tan smell and

it’s smearing everywhere. It’s like, ok, this is interesting, but I’ve got about seven weeks to my next one and then, five weeks after that will be the Mr America competition, which I’m super stoked about. I cannot believe how fast that’s coming up, it’s coming up fast. So I guess that means that that one is 12 weeks out. Wow.

Ben:, Dani:

As a as of Saturday, which is, that’s, yeah, I’m not even stepping on stage but I’m just like, oh my God, we have so much to do in that time.

Ben:

I know, I can’t even imagine all the logistics you guys have. But I’m super excited for that, like, so

stoked and also to have our vegan proteins meet up.

Ben:, Dani:

Before then I know we haven’t confirmed it per se but I think it’s probably, I mean, it just makes sense like four out of five of us are gonna, or five out of six of us are gonna be there anyway, we’ll just get Christina there.

Dani:

So, yeah, yeah, it should be, that should be really, really fun. I know you and Alice are probably going to be like dead by the time we get there.

Ben:

I got an invite to, the Alex’s wedding before that, which I think is maybe the weekend before Mr America or something.

Ben:, Dani:

Oh, it’s the weekend because we’re going to it too.

Ben:

Got it.

Dani:

That’s gonna be super fun also. You want to be there?

Ben:

I think I might have a show that weekend. I think Granite State is that weekend. So I would have loved to go. But I think it’s possible.

Ben:, Dani:

Granite State is usually like as close to Halloween as you can get changed it this year.

Ben:

So it’s, I know it’s the 19th. So yeah, I’ve got potentially. So there’s Granite State which is an INBF show the weekend after Mr America, two weeks after that is the monster mash. And then I think two weeks after that is Battle of the Gods and then Worlds is the next weekend for, so I still have to qualify for that.

But I think I, I would hope that I wouldn’t have too much difficult to qualify at those last two shows. They’re competitive shows. But also, I think I’ll be in, still be in very good shape. I’ll be in my best shape at that point. So, yeah.

Dani:

No, I think you will. And I’m really excited to go also, like just we’ll be able to come out to more of those shows. Actually, we were planning a trip like a quick trip to the Netherlands. That sounds so insane to say. We have like, we have first class tickets that are going to expire at the end of the year international first class ticket.

Ben:

All you need to. Yeah.

Dani:

So I would like to go to London because I already know I love it there. But he’s like, no, we got to go somewhere new and I’m like, oh, that’s so much planning, but we actually like flip flopped when we were going to go so that we could still go to worlds.

Ben:

So I have to say London is in the UK in general. Next year is going to be, I think a big travel year for me because 2022 is a big travel year. And then these last two years have kind of chilled out a little bit. And I think next year is gonna be another big travel year and the UK and London are top of my list because the, I would say the most vegan friendly place on the planet.

and also the best natural bodybuilding scene and best gym scene, I would say on the planet, it’s so, and that’s great because it’s so concentrated. So I can like, do a little gym tour. I can do a vegan food tour.

Dani:

It’s, it is, it is an amazing. I mean, I’ve never traveled anywhere, so I guess I’m kind of biased.

Ben:, Dani:

That’s the only other than Canada, that was your first international trip.

Ben:

You went to London most recently?

Dani:

And it was, it was good enough. So I’m like, no, I don’t want to go anywhere else. I just want to go back there. It was so awesome.

Ben:

It’s funny because you always hear, like British people talking about like, oh, I hate it here. Get me out of here. The weather sucks. Everyone’s, everyone’s an asshole. Like, leave me.

Dani:

I saw this video the other day of a guy, you know, in, in the UK, air conditioning is not like common in people’s houses. Well, here’s the thing, the guy, it occurred to him that here in the United States, even though air conditioning is common, like we normally have it set to like 74 degrees. And he was like, wait, that is our heat wave.

Like that’s the thing that everybody’s complaining about over in the UK. Honestly, you guys are setting your air conditioners to that. It was he, it just occurred to him and he was just cracking up. It was a very funny. It was a funny little video.

Ben:

It is funny. So what’s been going on with you? I know you’ve done a little traveling recently for some things.

Ben:, Dani:

like Giacomo was telling me the Peachtree Road race got canceled because of the heat so hot, but the expo still happened.

Dani:

So the expo was outstanding. I feel really bad. They didn’t cancel it the night before, like everybody was there and they canceled it. So I feel like they probably could have done that a little bit better. Like everybody, like it’s Atlanta in July. Chances are high that it’s gonna be pretty freaking hot. and then I’m traveling out in two weeks to go to Rachel’s Show near Atlanta.

That should be fun. And then we’re going to Denver a couple of weeks later. So, yeah, lots of, lots of travel stuff coming up. But I can’t, I can’t complain. It’s all good stuff. It just, all the trips make the year seem like they go by so fast. It’s like, freaks me out a little bit. but the last podcast you and I did together, we were talking about whole food plant based diets and why that might not be like the best route for everybody.

And people really liked that podcast. I got lots of feedback on that podcast. But one of the things we started to touch upon in that episode was this concept of orthorexia and that, that’s what, that’s what I want this podcast to be about because it’s a, it’s an eating disorder that I feel like not a lot of people know about. They don’t know how to recognize it. And a lot of people don’t even think it’s actually an eating disorder.

Yeah, it’s actually, I’ve double checked. It’s not in the DS M five right now. So it’s not actually technically a diagnosable eating disorder right now, but it’s going, it’s definitely going to be when they come out with the next one. So yeah, you wanna explain to people what orthorexia is?

Ben:

Yeah, I’ll give kind of my, I guess gen pop explanation. Gen pop isn’t the right word, my general heuristic for what I think it is. And then I don’t know if you have the official definition for it, but essentially it is an obsession with eating healthy or eating nutritiously. And somebody could look at that from the outside perspective and say, oh, so what’s so what’s wrong with that?

What’s wrong with wanting to eat healthy? And I think that this is funnily enough. Something that I think you will hear when somebody maybe adopts a more bodybuilding lifestyle. And there definitely are instances, a ton of instances and that’s something that I did want to talk about is using bodybuilding or some of these other justifications to cover up the fact that you might have this thing.

But for some people, you know, tracking their nutrition and paying attention to what they eat might actually be very health promoting and totally healthy. And you’ll get people who come from the outside, maybe somebody like a registered dietitian or somebody who’s in the know who’s a friend or family member who’s maybe coming from a good place.

Maybe not. And they’re saying, oh, you have orthorexia, you have an eating disorder because you are so obsessed with what you’re eating. You’re like, no dude, I’m just trying to like lose 20 pounds like, I’m not, I don’t, I’m not that obsessed about that because I weigh things out on a scale.

Ben:, Dani:

It doesn’t have to be necessarily like, disordered eating or disordered behavior, but it definitely can be totally, I think it’s, it’s hard to, I think for me.

Dani:

So I think that, that the technical definition is something like being obsessed with food quality versus food quantity, which is what a lot of the other eating disorders are about like anorexia eating as little as possible. Binge eating, you know, essentially eating as much as possible in little bursts. But yeah, this one’s more about food quality, but like you said, and this is what I hear from a lot of people in the vegan community specifically is like, well, that’s not an

eating disorder that’s just wanting to be healthy. And there are people who just want to be healthy that are not exhibiting signs of an eating disorder just like there are people exhibiting signs of an eating disorder that may very well not have it. I think a lot of it comes down to two things for me is this impacting your life negatively and like, how do you feel about it inside? Because I think, you know, like you said, I’m just weighing stuff out because I’m like trying to step on

stage. This is the sport that I love to do. But if it’s like, oh my God, I gotta weigh this out. Otherwise everything is gonna, like, fall apart and I’m gonna freak out and I’m gonna fall off track and everything’s gonna be terrible. Like, that is not a good thing to be feeling. That is not a sign of a healthy mind. You know.

Ben:

It’s true though is if you ask a lot of these people, if they think that these habits or behaviors are serving them, they would probably say yes. Like, do you think that this is positively impacting your life? Yeah, because if I didn’t do it, then I’d be getting sick because of all these toxins and whatever justification they, they give for it. Which I actually kind of wonder if there is a correlation between people who have orthorexia or who have these kind of tendencies?

And are they also the people who focus on, like, the microplastics and like all these other little, like, behaviors, like every little thing that’s in this cleaning product or that thing? And, oh, this has been linked to cancer and this has been, what’s the, hypochondriac? Right. That’s the word for that. I feel like there’s probably a lot of cross over there, I think.

Dani:

Yeah, if that was a Venn diagram, it would be pretty close to a circle. I’m sure it’s not entirely that, like, I’m sure there are some people who are obsessed with their food quality that don’t care about that other stuff. But I feel like, yeah, the people that I know are both, you know, like people that are obsessing about every little thing that they eat are the same ones suggesting

that having contacts in my eyes means I’m gonna have microplastics in my body for the rest of my life. Like, bro, you already have micro plastics in your body. I promise you.

Ben:

You see that new study about which one? Yeah. I don’t know. It was like, oh God, what was it?

Ben:, Dani:

I think it was, oh, I saw one about babies being born.

Ben:

I think the one I saw was maybe about male fertility related to something about that or like finding it in like sperm samples or something. I don’t know.

Ben:, Dani:

I kind of forget what it was, but I guess I just give up in that regard.

Ben:

I know it feels like sometimes it’s so hopeless why I even try. But it’s tricky as well because I think it’s a spectrum like it’s hard to maybe at first you’re like, oh, I’m gonna start buying like organic, you know, I wanna get organic or non GMO or something like that. And maybe you can kind of give some justification for why that might be a good idea.

But then you can start going down this rabbit hole of obsessing about every little single thing. And I think like you said, that’s where it starts to get really negative is when it’s taking up so much mental space and energy that every decision feels like it’s this monumental thing.

Ben:, Dani:

So I actually, I was never diagnosed with it, but I absolutely had orthorexia ask you, I feel like I recall you saying that yeah, 100% had no, I mean, I had never heard the word.

Dani:

I don’t even know if it was a word yet actually. So it was after my, you know, 90 pounds ish of weight loss, I had reached the goal weight, I wanted to reach, but I didn’t look the way I wanted to look like,

like happens to many people that don’t build muscle first. That’s where I was, but I didn’t know, know what to do. Like I had reached a goal and I was like, ok, now, what if, if I’ve been doing everything perfectly to get here?

Now, how do I progress from here? Well, I just must have to eat cleaner. Like I must not be rock hard because I’m eating boca burgers instead of steamed tofu or something because they’re just, and this sounds like such a rude thing to say now, but I can say it because I was it, I just did not have the education to know any better. I didn’t understand nutrition, like the principles of nutrition enough to know that that train of thought was bullshit.

So I, and I had a coach at the time, I was only like 18 or 19 and she was a registered dietitian and she would say things like, oh, I could never get away with eating what you’re eating and look like that. Oh, yeah.

Ben:

I mean, the licensing, must have been a little bit different back then.

Dani:

She was bad.

Ben:, Dani:

She was really bad because I had like, a builder bar in my, in my meal plan and, I always forget how long those have been around for some reason.

Ben:

I feel like I, like, discovered them after I went vegan. So I think it was almost like in my mind they were a newer thing.

Ben:, Dani:

But it sounds like no, you were, you were probably like six years old.

Ben:

I actually never even had a boca burger.

Dani:

Really? Oh man, we have some here. I’ll give you some to take home because I love them. They’re the, they’re the OG and they are still really good. But I remember I was cutting and I was also on all these forums. So social media was not what it is now, it was in all these forums and you know, so many people were raw, the raw food movement was so much bigger than.

So there would be people talking about how, you know, cooked broccoli was toxic for you and you can’t eat oils, you have to eat this or that or if you eat too much fruit at this time and if it’s not organic, then you’re going to store it differently. And if you don’t know, you just don’t know. So you’re like, oh, these people must know more than I do, which I think is what is happening on social media now.

You know, if people don’t have the formal education and they see somebody saying this and they’re trying to get healthier or improve the way they look, they’re probably just going to believe it. And now they’re afraid of XYZ seed oils are the thing right now.

Ben:

You know, I actually thought of that when you said that, I feel like a lot of sorry. Did you have? No, no, no, I feel like a lot of the justification or rationale or reasoning behind why a lot of these things are deemed toxic often comes back to this appeal to nature. Like, even if you think of organic or GMO, it’s like, oh, we’re doing all, we’re making all these modifications to them and that means they’re inherently harmful. or in the case of like how you’re cooking or processing,

it’s like, oh, well, this, this is its natural form. This is what it was, how it was meant to be eaten. Or it’s like if you look at beans, like what are you going to eat the raw beans? Because that’s better. You’re not going to cook them. Like we know actually that they have these like pates and anti nutrients that like you would absorb more of the nutrients when you cook them and all would poison yourself.

Ben:, Dani:

If you try to use certain ones, rice and arsenic, I think is like, well, actually, I don’t know if that relates to cooking.

Ben:

But anyways, there’s a lot of foods where it’s actually like, so much worse for you. If you eat it uncooked or raw you don’t do some degree of processing. but it’s like people default to, oh, if us as humans, we’ve got, we have this sick society. So, anything that we’ve done has pushed us back in the, you know, we need to look at

what people were doing 200 years ago because they weren’t sick and obese like we are, but they were dying from a common cold or a cutter infection. But we don’t talk about that.

Dani:

Yeah, it’s a, you know, I’m sure that there’s things as a society we could be doing better, like, and that’s the thing, right? Like if I sit here and say, like GMO s have stopped millions, maybe even billions of people from starving to death. That makes it sound like I’m like pro all Franken foods and that’s probably not.

Ben:, Dani:

I mean, I don’t know enough about it to say exactly.

Dani:

Like, you know, I’m sure there’s lots of evil corporations doing evil stuff out there, but there’s gray areas with everything and that comes down to like the food that you take in also. Like we talked about on the whole food Plant based podcast. Like, it’s great to eat lots of whole plant foods. But if it’s, if it’s stressing you out and that’s how I started to realize, like, something wasn’t right for me.

It’s because you might have heard, oh, you eat these things and that’s fine. But it wasn’t fine. I was stressed if I couldn’t, if I had to have a boca burger because I was running behind on time if I had to have a cliff builder bar because I was working and I didn’t have time to eat a, sit down and eat a salad. You know, I would be like, oh, I’m like, I’m gonna not make the progress I’m trying to make, I’m failing the thing that I said that I was going to do.

If my friends invited me out to a restaurant, I would panic beforehand. Like, what am I going to do? What am I, what could I possibly eat there? So a lot of times I just wouldn’t eat there or if I did, I would feel guilty about it. And first of all, it benefited my physique. Zero.

Ben:, Dani:

This, I didn’t like, start looking better or making more progress, physiques.

Dani:

Yeah. And I feel like it was really, really, really rampant in the vegan community. Like to find somebody who had a more flexible approach to veganism back then was like, nobody, like, basically, maybe some people in like the punk community were like, Oreos are vegan.

Hell yeah. But mostly not now, I feel like there’s a lot more people that are more balanced but still, I mean, would you say that’s still a small group of people in the vegan community, that are like, not fear mongering about all different kinds of food.

Ben:

Oh, yeah. I think that when you identify as somebody who is going against the grain in some way, even if that’s not your reason for adopting a vegan lifestyle, you are inherently doing that. And I think a lot of people then get sucked up into other, maybe they didn’t go vegan for ethical reasons and they did it as a health thing. And I think those people might tend to fall into more of like the fat or trend kind of types or even if you did it for ethical reasons. You still might, I think

those people tend to be more the most sensible when it comes to. Like I think that this where you see this most is people who are vegan for health reasons. That’s where I see this the most is because they become very dogmatic and tribal about it to the point where they can’t even like say or like admit that, oh, actually there’s some data showing that low fat dairy products and fish could have some, you know, helpful health benefits for people.

Ben:, Dani:

Because if you can’t even like go down that route, I can’t even acknowledge that there is this data like we have to, we have to be honest about what the data says.

Ben:

And it doesn’t say because if we start to use our, you know, ethical biases to make these claims or we just don’t understand nutrition science and we’re making these claims because we got sucked in, you know, down a rabbit hole, then we’re not helping the, the argument that we’re making. And I guess to kind of come back, I think the issue with saying that you need to eat a certain way to be vegan, like you’re not vegan if you don’t eat this way or like all vegans need to eat this way is it

just becomes more exclusionary for people. And the more that we can just make it like a normal thing, like, hey, vegans eat Oreos, vegans eat, you know, we can have all these foods too. that’s another thing that I think is kind of an underrated undertone to this conversation.

Dani:

Yeah, definitely. And I think that when you’re coming at it from an ethical standpoint, originally, I do think you tend to be more balanced because if there’s a study, you know, I’ve made the joke, if there was a study that came out that said, like eating babies would make me have the most gains possible. I still wouldn’t eat babies because like that, that I do not believe in eating babies.

But you know, that do, doesn’t mean these studies don’t exist when you’re coming from an ethical place. You could say like, oh, they, that look at these healthy people who do eat animal products, like, ok, like good for them. This is possible, but I still don’t want any part of it. but I was an ethical vegan and I still fell down this orthorexia rabbit hole and, oh my God, I was so stressed out all the time.

Like I remember crying in certain scenarios when I felt like I had failed or done wrong. And God bless

Giacomo, he was a raw foodist when we met. Did you know that Giacomo was a raw foodist for almost four years?

Ben:

I think on the vegan linked interview, I heard you guys mention that.

Dani:

Yeah, he was and he was hardcore too. He may at the time. He was absolutely the only raw vegan bodybuilder that was like stepping on stage. So you know, this just goes to say like you can, you can achieve anything you want really? I mean, he was pretty good too. Like people are like, oh can you do vegan Keto? You can do it. Can you do raw vegan bodybuilding?

You can do it. I don’t want to do it. But now he was older than me. I was 21. He was spouting all this bullshit about nutrition. That made no sense. But I had big stars in my eyes and I was like, he must know he’s a competitive bodybuilder and I’m just a former fat kid. Like so we did lots of stupid stuff. We went, I think we, in our first month of dating, we went on like a 10 day juice fast.

This is so embarrassing to say. it happened that definitely like when I say we made all the mistakes, I mean, it, we made all the mistakes. and you know, he, he ate so much cleaner than I did normally that I constantly felt like bad, like lesser than, and I still see that in, in the community today.

Ben:

I think that’s why the environment is such a crucial thing when it comes to how this manifests. Because in a couple of ways, if you surround yourself with people who have that kind of mentality and you’re in this echo chamber online of people who are thinking a, a similar way, then it can become easier to justify.

Well, it’s not that usual, unusual or weird like these people are doing it. So I’m gonna do it too and that’s kind of what it sounds like. happened with Giacomo, but equally on the others not to, not to throw Jock on to the bus.

Dani:

It’s my favorite game. Yeah.

Ben:

But equally, if you feel like you’re the only one doing this kind of in your friend group, then it become or in your immediate social circle, I could see how isolating that could feel. And I could see it going one

or two ways, one or two ways is one is that you just kind of put yourself further into this isolation and maybe you start to get better and say, well, no one cares about their health around me. So I’m just going to cut these people out of my life because, you know, they, our

lifestyles aren’t compatible anymore. And so, you know, if they want to be sick and, you know, eat all these things that I’m just gonna find people who agree with me or I’m gonna not interact with them anymore or you don’t do that and you, like you said, go out, but then you have these panic attacks about what am I gonna eat?

Or you have all this guilt and shame surrounding food and food decisions and there just doesn’t really seem to be a good outcome that can come from either of those scenarios.

Dani:

Yeah. And, and you know, to the point that you made like at the beginning about the bodybuilding community, I know we were just talking a lot about the vegan community but you know, the vegan community and the bodybuilding community where they overlap.

Ben:

There should be some, you know, that meme of like the two like there should be something about that.

Dani:

Definitely 100%. You know, the stuff that I’m describing, I know that from the outside people are like, wow, you’re so disciplined, like, so amazing that you can do that. And I was like dying inside hating every second of everything until I finally, I, I just snapped and I was like, fuck this. Like, I’m not, I don’t believe cooked broccoli is bad for me.

I’m done believing that. But it was, I still had to like fight my own sort of shame around that coming out of it. But thank God, it’s part of the reason why I think it’s really important for more balanced, I guess vegans to actually show what they act like, truly eat.

Ben:

Like when you showed your day of eating, that was like cereal thinking that I was like, I’m like, I feel like it’s important for those of us who maybe people aspire to look like in particular to say, hey, you know, maybe it’s not necessarily an aesthetic thing for you, maybe it’s a health thing that’s fine. But having examples in every sector of people who, like you said, take a more balanced approach like, yeah, I eat a lot of fruits and vegetables but I also sometime during phases of

my life or at different times I eat what some people would consider vegan junk food or vegan

processed crap or that’s toxic or whatever it is. And it’s like, actually you might, it might be really helpful for somebody out there to see that. Oh, you can actually, you know, be fine and eat these more processed things or it doesn’t have to be completely all or nothing one way or the other.

Dani:

But how so when you’re looking at somebody who’s in the, and again, it’s such a spectrum. When I’m looking at a competitive bodybuilder, I expect to see what would technically check the boxes of disordered eating, you know, like it’s not generally considered like healthy or sane to weigh all of your food or track all of your food or eat the exact same things every single day.

But I feel like when the motivation for doing that is to achieve a particular goal, a sport. In this case, I feel like it’s very different than, I don’t know if your goal was just like be a normal healthy person.

Ben:

Yeah, I feel like there’s almost this choice that is built into like this, this level of autonomy. Like are you doing this because you feel like you have to or because you feel like you want to and those are two very different things like, oh no, I’m doing this because this is a choice that I’m making to get me to this outcome. versus I feel like I have to eat this way because if I don’t, then I’m going to be poisoning my body or my health is going to deteriorate.

And again, that can be a hard line to draw and also hard to identify in yourself. Like you might be able to say, oh no, if I wanted to, I could, you know, I could eat that junk food, but I’m just choosing not to because I value myself and my body. But it’s like, I think at a certain point you have to be honest with yourself about. Are you using this as like a means of control?

Like that’s another thing as well. So often times it’s like, oh, well, maybe my life feels kind of chaotic, but food is the one thing that I have control over, which is usually a common theme in eating disorders. And so, I’m going to at least feel like I have some control because I can control my health through my nutrition, right?

Dani:

And this is kind of a side topic, but I have worked with a few clients over the years who were formerly anorexic, like pretty deep into anorexia to the point that they were having all the all the health complications that come along with it who eventually found bodybuilding. And we’re really drawn to the structure of it because that’s a lot of what people who become anorexic or they, they like that, that structure, that discipline and they were able to sort of channel the energy

that they had when they were dealing with anorexia into bodybuilding. So from the outside, it still kind of looked the same, but the motivation for doing it was very different before they just wanted to get as small as possible. Now they’re trying to get as strong as possible. It’s muscular as possible and it feels much more empowering for them and it feels less stressful. Their bodies are healthier.

But there is still that like that twinge of anxiety if things don’t go the way you hoped that they were gonna go. But it is still such a huge improvement from where they were that you could probably still say, OK, this person has some orthorexia tendencies. But is that, is that good enough for where they came from? I would say with the people that I know I would say.

Ben:

Yeah. Yeah, I’ve heard that anecdote before of people saying that even though I had an eating disorder before and it might look like I’m using this to kind of cover it up. And that genuinely, it’s a case by case basis, it has to be, it has to be because there are some people where yes, that is genuinely the case. Like they’re using bodybuilding as a way to justify the eating disorder that they have or that they maybe don’t think that they have but they have but there are some people that

like you said, I’ve heard where they’re like bodybuilding actually helped me have so much more of a healthy relationship because it maybe got me looking at like I know some people say like the numbers don’t like for some people, the numbers really don’t help them. But for some people, it does, it helps just make things objective. Like, no, this is just what this is.

It doesn’t have any kind of emotional attachment to it. It’s just these are the inputs I’m trying to, do because it’s helping fuel my goals. And like you said, getting me stronger, getting me to this outcome and it’s no longer a means of control. It’s just a, something that I’m doing in order to make sure that I’m objectively making the progress that I want and it kind of shifts over time and then it’s almost like, like you said, it’s not that you ever completely forget the way that you

once thought or that these kind of, these emotions and behaviors are so ingrained that you’re never gonna most likely completely get away from them. So there’s always kind of that little like you said, that twinge at the back of your mind, but it’s kind of shifted and morphed into something else and, become as healthy as it could be.

Dani:

Yeah, to me, it almost seems like a harm reduction situation, where, you know, it could go back in the other direction. And for some people, competitive bodybuilding is something they can never touch. Because once it gets into the deeper parts of the cutting phase, the prep like that is from the outside. It’s very similar to anorexia nervosa because the goal is to just keep getting leaner and leaner and you’re doing, you never stop moving and you’re getting more tired and you’re,

you know, but I think that the motivation of why you’re doing something is so so, so important to determining is this an eating disorder or not? back when I was in treatment for an eating disorder, I was already vegan.

Ben:, Dani:

And when you go into treatment for eating disorders, you, you’re not allowed to be vegan, like, you

know, because you kind of remember thinking along these lines when I did.

Ben:

So, I did one semester of a master’s program in nutrition and diet heads and I remember talking about it or thinking about like, oh, these are some red flags, like, people who have followed fad diets or something. And it listed all as, and like, vegan was one of them. And I’m like, yeah, it could be, but it could also just be like, they’re an ethical vegan, right.

Dani:

So, there are just like bodybuilding, there’s a lot of people that are using veganism as a way to kind of get people off their back. Like, no, I don’t eat this because I’m vegan. It’s not because I just want to keep getting smaller. It’s because I’m vegan anyway. When I went into treatment I was like, well, I’m not, if I can’t be vegan, I’m not staying, like, because that’s such a hard line for me.

And they had to, like, talk to me about this, that and the other and after they talked to me for a while they were like, oh, that’s, that’s not why you’re vegan. Like, you can stay vegan. And I was like, cool. Like, this must be a conversation they have to have with everybody and I understand why. I mean, it’s kind of funny but it’s kind of dark at the time.

I was struggling with bulimia, like, pretty badly. And I was like, listen, I could be in the middle of a blind rage binge and I’m checking the ingredient lists. Like everything I’m having is still vegan. You just got to believe me. So, yeah, that’s, they ended up letting that go. But I do think there’s a lot of ways people can try to and I say, try to hide their eating disorder.

It might not even be a conscious thing because I think a lot of people are suffering and don’t realize that they’re suffering, which is why I wanted to do this podcast because a lot of people that listen to this podcast have some pretty orthorexia tendencies.

Ben:

Yeah. They think it’s facilitative but it’s actually harmful. And I think I would try to encourage somebody especially, let’s say you’re into bodybuilding to only be as restrictive as the phase requires. Like if you’re in a prep, you might not like want to limit the about the different number of foods that you’re eating and the variation day to day because it makes it, and again, everyone’s different.

It makes it, some, some people find that, that monotony makes it so that thinking about food less, I know what I’m going to eat. I don’t have to think about it. I’m not fantasizing about what am I gonna make for this next meal? How can I make it fit my macros? But equally if you are somebody who feels like meal plans are overly restricted where like, ok, if I have to eat the same thing every day for a week, I’m gonna like, I’m gonna go crazy, I’m gonna snack.

So you have to know where you are on that spectrum. but that’s very different saying like, oh, I’m

gonna limit my food variety because it’s gonna help me adhere to my plan better versus I’m gonna limit my, the number of foods I can eat because I can only have these eight foods because they’re the healthy foods. And if I eat anything outside of that, then, the diet’s over, I’ve ruined everything and guilt and shame are often what lead to these like binge episodes.

Even if you don’t necessarily have a binge eating disorder, you can still have binging episodes. And it might be because you feel like, you know, you have this arbitrary line in your mind that you’ve crossed and now that you’ve crossed it, you might as well go all the way.

Dani:

Why not? Yeah, absolutely. And I, I really, that’s how I approach most of my clients is. I want them to be as not restrictive as they need to and sometimes whatever goal we’re working towards requires being restrictive of certain things. But I often tell people it’s like if we’re going through a build and then I know we’re going to go through a cut at some point.

And I can tell they’re kind of like white knuckling their way through certain things in their build. I’m like, you need to loosen up because I’m gonna need you to find that willpower at some point. Like you’re gonna need to dig into it. And if you use it all up now, it’s gonna be really hard for you to find it when you need it. So chill, relax a little bit. Now you don’t need to be, you know, weighing your protein powder in a build like a scoop is a scoop.

We’re gonna just count it as a scoop. There may come a point where I need you to do exactly that, but this is not it. So, and some people just, they, they just wanna go hard, they just wanna go hard right from the beginning, you know, it’s satisfying, I guess in some way for some people I don’t want to do it. I’ve done it. I don’t want to do it again. Like I’ve saved my, my that gear. Like I need to save that gear. So I don’t grind it out too soon. Yeah.

Ben:

And yeah, I, again, I feel like we keep going back to like, it really is an individual thing for some people because there could be some people who like, yeah, I just get satisfaction and enjoyment out of knowing that I’m being as precise as I can be with these things. And I it doesn’t bother me at all to do it. But if you feel like you’re weighing your protein powder because you have to weigh your protein powder because you have to be this accurate. It’s like no, actually, the reason we

track macros for instance is because we feel like it’ll get us to a certain outcome. But honestly, in the off season, you can get to that outcome without that level of precision. It’s not, you don’t need that level of neuroticism really. So, like you said, preserve your longevity because you might think that, oh, I could do this forever. But, you know, that’s what you think until that day happens where you’re like, screw it.

Dani:

And then for some people, it’s really hard to ever come back from that because what, you know, resentment has been building for a long time for a lot of people sometimes before they even notice. And then, yeah, it’s just, it’s really hard to come back from that for some folks. And I completely forgot what I was just going to say.

Ben:

That’s all right. Did you have some things?

Dani:

Oh, I was just looking at some of the symptoms on here. because I’m sure a lot of people are listening to this and being like, well, is that me? I don’t know if that’s me you know. Yeah. So to run through some of the symptoms here, the first one is just dietary restriction, like cutting out, cutting out food groups because you think that that’s what you have to do in order to like be on track. which I remember what I was gonna say now and this reminds me of it. Like you might not need to be

super restrictive in a building phase like needing to weigh your protein powder. But you do need to have some education. Like the knowledge I think is really, really important and same thing with cutting out food groups. Like I feel like when you have and you don’t have to have like a nutrition degree or anything. But when you have a basic understanding of certain nutritional concepts, so much of the fear around this stuff just falls away as opposed to like bad food, good food.

Ben:

Oh like carbs are bad or like, you know, fats are bad or whatever it is like instead of just demonizing foods because you heard it was bad somewhere like, yeah, when you have the knowledge, you know, the principles and you can look at it more in a nuanced way.

Dani:

It makes me think of how like in prehistoric times when people saw like hurricanes or floods or tornadoes or like huge weather, like they thought it was like the powers that be were cursing them or blessing them or whatever. And over time we’ve realized like, well, this cold front, hit this warm front and that’s, you know, a lot of the fear around those things or the mystery around those things.

We don’t have that anymore. And like, thank God for that because we can prepare for hurricanes. And, you know, and I feel like it’s very similar with food. We’re not taught this stuff in school. So we have like, don’t even scratch the surface of understanding nutrition with like a basic K through 12 education. So it’s not surprising that people are confused.

It’s something we do all day, every day and a lot of people want to change the way they look and they don’t know how. So I just feel like education around this stuff is so important. ok, the next, symptom

here is compulsive behavior. So, like compulsively checking ingredient lists or food labels or, you know, I know a lot of people that go in and out of my fitness pal like 100 times to like, tweak this or that or the other thing to make sure that they got it right.

It almost sounds like, yeah, like obsessive compulsive behaviors. this is probably the one that I think is one of the most important is the emotional response to food. Like food should not be that emotional no matter what your goal is.

Ben:

Unless you just finished a prep and it’s like the best meal you’ve ever eaten, then you might be, you might be having a borderline spiritual experience after that.

Dani:

But yeah, that is, that is true.

Ben:, Dani:

I’ve seen some people kind of missed up in their eyes eating the best piece of chocolate cake I’ve ever had and it probably truly is as well.

Dani:

But like in general, yeah, food, I mean, if you are not worried about like where your next meal is coming from, food shouldn’t be something that you’re super worried about. The impact on your social life. If you are avoiding friends or family or social outings, vacations, holidays, you know, you’re showing up to everything with your own tupperware and you’re not getting ready for a bodybuilding competition.

Ben:, Dani:

That’s not, that’s not normal behavior is so big to me, I feel like social isolation and your relationships, it makes up such a large part of your health, which is kind of the ironic thing, right?

Ben:

It’s like people are doing this because they want to be healthier. But we know social determinants of health. Like how strong your bonds are with other people is a major, major contributor to you know how long you live and the quality of your life. And it’s like if one thing is coming at the cost of the other, then what’s even the point anymore, right?

Dani:

But so many people just equate health with bodily health that they can’t even really see why that is so important. I feel like until it’s really gone, like you know, if you stop checking in on people enough, eventually they’re going to stop checking in on you too. And one day you just look around and you’re like, oh, I don’t have a social circle anymore and you realize how sucky that is.

And I mean, that can happen for so many different reasons. But if it’s food, that is the reason, if that’s a major reason, I think you really should be asking yourself some, some pretty big questions. 100%. So physical symptoms, you know, depending on, I guess your brand of orthorexia, you know, some people can end up with various nutritional deficiencies or gut problems.

So I was actually reading a study the other day that people who cut out gluten that are not celiac or, you know, the 1% that’s truly sensitive to it. They actually have worse gut health because they have basically just like killed off the microbiome that digests that. And, you know, a lot of people think they’re going to cut out gluten and lose weight if you actually need to cut out gluten because it’s causing you health problems and you cut out

gluten theoretically, you should gain weight because you’re going to be absorbing your food so much better. You know what I mean? So I was like, oh, I never thought of that.

Ben:

I mean, yeah, with the gut thing, we know how important diversity is for the gut microbiome. So it makes sense and I’ve heard anecdotally about bodybuilders who, oh, I ate the same foods during my prep the entire time. And then once I started introducing all these foods afterwards for a while. Yeah, my digestion was terrible for however long. so I can see that.

Dani:

Oh, yeah, that’s definitely happened to a few of my clients that cut out like all nut butters. Not, not because I told them to, but because they were struggling to have. Yeah. So when prep was over and they started eating it, they were like wrecked from a while before that came back. And yeah, that was my first interaction with that mental health issues. I feel like we already sort of touched on that ritualistic eating patterns.

Ben:, Dani:

See this, I feel like is an interesting one.

Ben:

I’m thinking about like the bodybuilder with the same.

Ben:, Dani:

Like I always just bring it back to bodybuilding, but like this is my bowl and this is my spoon and, and I’m pretty, I am still like that. Like we have small forks and small these times and we eat these.

Ben:

Yeah.

Dani:

And I mean, again, for a particular goal, it’s sometimes it’s totally fine and I do, I still do a lot of that but not because I feel like I have to, it just feels like a habit at this point and it doesn’t negatively affect my life at all, which is, you know, between that and the emotional response. I think those are the biggest things like, is it actually negatively impacting your life?

You know, I also hesitate with this one a little bit because there’s certain folks who might just be like kind of neurodivergent and need to have their eating schedules a particular way that has nothing to do with any kind of eating disorder.

Ben:

But, you know, as my sister who is neurodivergent herself has pointed out many times, there’s a lot of crossover between bodybuilders and those who are neurodivergent. Some could say even, maybe not so coincidentally.

Dani:

So, yeah, I would agree with that. But, you know, if, if you normally eat blah, blah, blah, for breakfast, but again, if someone comes over, they’re like, oh, I’ll be over there at 10 and we’ll have brunch or something and you’re like, ah, I don’t know what to do about that, but no, I have breakfast at eight. Like, you know, those are not good things to generally be thinking about, body image concerns.

So this is interesting because I feel like, unlike the other eating disorders, orthorexia doesn’t necessarily have to do with wanting to change what your body looks like. Like a lot of people are afraid that they’re going to be unhealthy, like inside internally. but I see a ton of like, orthorexia behaviors from people who do want to change the way their body looks.

largely in my opinion, fueled by social media and misinformation and, and lack of education, you fat, like something like that. Oh yeah, that’s, those are everywhere and like I get it that they grab people’s attention and in the age of attention as the most valuable form of currency there is people will say and do anything but like what the fuck?

You’re just, you’re just freaking people out for nothing. And then if there ever was something that like actually people should know, hey, maybe this one actually really isn’t a good choice for this, this or this reason. Like, you wouldn’t even be able to tell the difference anymore.

Ben:

It evolved from those like infographics of like the eat this, not that. And now it’s people in grocery stores doing tiktok dances and making a big scene out of it. I always wonder like people who are in the grocery store just like watching them film this thing. They must be like these freaking people are psychos.

Dani:

Do you use Reddit at all?

Ben:

Yeah, I’ve used Reddit.

Dani:

OK. So there’s a sub on the called I am the main character and it’s literally, it’s just videos of people doing stuff like that creating content in really inconvenient places, like crosswalks, stuff like that.

Ben:, Dani:

And yeah, I mean, it’s pretty cringy, but also kind of funny to make character as in like you think you’re so self important that like the world revolves around you sort of thing.

Dani:

Yeah, like they’re the main character of their own story and we’re all What is it? NP CS. Yeah. that’s a, that’s a fun one to peruse. It’s pretty rage inducing after a few minutes though. time consumption. That’s, that’s actually a really good, like, how much time are you spending on your food? And I don’t mean like cooking it or eating it, although it could be those things, but for most of the people that I see it’s thinking about it and planning it, you’re perseverating on it.

Like, like for a really long time sometimes when people are trying to, you know, you work with them, they, they know what macros they should be eating. And, especially if flexible dieting is kind of a new thing. You’re like, ok, I want you to write something that you get as close to these numbers as you can and let me take a look at it and give you my thoughts. Deer in headlights like, immediately.

Ben:

Oh, it can’t be like two calories off or like 3 g off or whatever. Yeah.

Dani:

Yeah. Or, you know, they’re trying to fit Dr Gregor’s Daily dozen into every single day and they can’t make it work. speaking of reddit, if you go into like, the nutrition subreddits, the question comes up every single day. Like, if you could write the ideal diet, what would it be?

Ben:

That’s a massive myth.

Ben:, Dani:

The fact that there is an ideal diet and people, people answer every day and it’s a different answer every day everyone’s got their, their ideal diet, behavioral change.

Dani:

So this would be more like, is this currently happening to you? Like, have you noticed that you are responding differently around food than you used to? So this sneaks up on people when they first get into fitness, I think. because again, I think, I think all of this starts with a very good intention of just trying to be better and do better.

So, you know, you feel really good about it at first and then after a while you realize you just, you don’t, you’ve changed a lot and now you don’t really like how you’re living your life.

Ben:

Yeah, it can be this insidious thing. I think also it can come down to personality a lot as well. Like if you’re somebody who tends to be very extreme all or nothing with a lot of things that you do in life. I think people who are like that in one aspect of like life, not always, but are often like that in lots of aspects of their life. And this could be an example of that.

Dani:

And a lot of times those folks are drawn to fitness and bodybuilding and, you know, ultramarathon running and whatever.

Ben:

Yeah.

Dani:

And they go for it. But you know, this one you got to be careful with because like maybe we said this at the beginning, I can’t remember if we said it when we were recording or not. So it’s not technically diagnosable right now, but it will be when the next DS M comes out whenever the hell that is gonna be. It’s been like in the works for eternity now.

so right now it’s under the umbrella of AFD, which I’ve already forgotten what it stands for. It used to be. No, it’s basically just an umbrella term for, eating disorders that are not anorexia, nervosa bulimia, nervosa or binge eating disorder. A fed, other specified feeding or eating disorders. So that if you had orthorexia, they diagnose somebody with a fed right now.

But you know, eating disorders are also kind of a spectrum. That’s why this category exists because there’s so many atypical presentations of all of the eating disorders that it can kind of. And that’s what happened to me. It started as one thing and then it turned into bulimia, which I could explain that like it, it actually makes a lot of sense like you’re white knuckling and not eating so many things. And then like you said, one day, you just frigging snap and eat all of the things

and the binge restrict cycle started and that was much, much harder to deal with. I think. So I would say that it’s my opinion that dealing with treating confronting orthorexia while it is still orthorexia is going to be a lot easier than dealing with b when it, if it leans fully into bulimia or fully into anorexia. Those are a lot harder, deeper eating disorders to deal with.

Ben:

So, yeah, I think it kind of comes back to what you were saying earlier about having good information and potentially with orthorexia. It’s maybe just like a lack of knowledge and education and given that somebody is exposed to enough of that over time, they might come to realize that this food is not actually killing you or this food is toxic.

Like they can spot those claims when they’re on social media. And they can kind of like begin to say, OK, maybe this isn’t true. The fact that today it’s potatoes and tomorrow it’s beans and the next day it’s some other thing. It’s like, oh wow, a lot of people are actually using the same narrative to demonize different foods. So maybe there’s a trend here and it’s not the fact that there are all these toxic foods, but the fact that there’s something to be gained here.

So I feel like once you kind of pick up on that pattern or you’re able to detect that And you’re able to educate yourself on the fact that, you know, when it comes to, there’s no like good, bad food. It’s not this dichotomy. Then I think that can be super helpful and breaking out of that.

Dani:

Yeah. And I think that if you’re kind of in the earlier stages of dealing with orthorexia, like the intention is still very good the intention is still, I want to be healthier. I want to do better. And if you’re getting some sort of treatment for that, then it’s just so much easier to just sort of pivot somebody from there.

Versus if it gets, if it gets worse, if it gets deeper, it usually will morph into a different eating disorder. And those can be just so ingrained that some people deal with them for the rest of their lives. So it’s not something that you want to like, wait and see like, oh, where is this gonna go?

Ben:

Especially if you start to have any doubt in the back of your mind of like, I wonder if this is healthy or not for me. reach out to somebody, talk to somebody whether that be a friend, a family member, a medical professional, obviously, we can’t diagnose things, but we’re happy to answer any questions you have or concerns that you have.

If you feel like, hey, is this something I should be thinking about more that I should get checked out that I should look into or even, you know, what are the validity of these claims that people are making about XYZ? What do you think about that?

Dani:

Definitely send all of those to me because I love to, I mean, if it’s not going to start an internet war, I love to respond to.

Ben:

Let’s start an entire, that sounds fun. Let’s get involved in some drama. We stay out of it too much. We gotta get involved.

Dani:

I actually, it’s probably already out by now, but I’ve made a, a reaction video to a Mike Eel video from two years ago. I had never seen it, but it was 10 reasons why you should go vegan. Yeah, I had never seen it. So yeah, some of his points were really fucking weird. But but I was still very impressed with the video on the whole. Anyway. Yeah, like Ben said, if you, we can’t diagnose anything, but if you’re like, hey, is this a red flag, like just shoot us an email?

It’s coach at Vegan proteins.com. Shoot us an email and be like, is this a red flag? I mean, we can at least tell you if we think it’s a red flag or, or like a beige flag or something like just keep your eye on

this thing because it, it can, it can be such a slow burn the way some of these things start to happen again coming from the best place possible.

You kind of just touched on it. Maybe you want to talk a little bit more about what you should be looking for in social media posts to recognize if it is likely a bullshit claim.

Ben:

Yeah, I guess just people who speak in absolutes rather than probabilities and have more of a black and white dichotomous view of nutrition really inflammatory language. Yeah. Whether that’s saying that this is gonna make you fat or this is toxic or this is gonna give you cancer. It’s like poison. We, we know that there are general eating patterns that promote health, but it doesn’t come down to a single food or a single meal. It never does.

unless it’s like, oh, you didn’t prepare this thing correctly and it’s literally has like disease in it or something like, ok, then maybe it could, it could potentially kill you like it’s got e coli or something. But, outside of that, no, there’s, there’s nothing inherently harmful about most of these foods that are being demonized. And so, yeah, look out for anything that’s overly inflammatory. and is trying to invoke fear in you.

Dani:

Yes. Yeah. There’s a lot to be, you know, if you take a marketing course, like, one of the things that they teach you is to kind of find people’s soft spot, they’re the place where they’re the most insecure or afraid and like, really dig into it to make them more afraid or more uncomfortable because then they’re a lot more likely to buy the thing from the.

Yep. And that’s why I suck at marketing because I just can’t, I can’t bring myself to, I mean, I’ll ask questions but I cannot just like, push on some, like, it’s like kicking somebody while they’re down kind of. But, you know, if you see posts like this which you will, I guarantee the next time you open a social media app, you will see something like this, you know, check their bio out, see what they’re trying to sell you.

Because a lot of times they’re trying to sell you the solution to the problem that they just created with whatever evil food it is that they’re showing you and we already recorded this and the camera cut off. So we’re rerecording it. But we had said before, like if somebody says they’re like a hormone coach or a menopause coach or gut coach, like those aren’t real things.

Ben:

What are they asking for certifications?

Dani:

Yeah, there is. No, I saw another one. It was really bizarre the other day. Oh, man, I wish I could remember what it was but it was just like, that’s not even a thing at all.

Ben:

Like that’s, yeah, some like buzzword and that they made up to throw on their body.

Dani:

Yeah, I wish I could remember what it was, but it was ridiculous. So, yeah, kids like I can, we are, we are certified vegan nutrition and bodybuilding coaches. Like, I mean, technically that’s true, but that’s also not a thing.

Ben:

I mean, we can’t really do much with that.

Dani:

Yeah, but a week, you know, nobody’s stopping anybody from putting some bullshit in their bio. Thank you guys so much for tuning into another episode of vegan Proteins, Muscles by Brussels radio. If you have any questions about anything we talked about today, feel free to shoot us an email coach at Vegan proteins.com. And if you are interested in any kind of one on one coaching, also coach at Vegan proteins.com, or you could go to our website, fill out an application.

Ben has some slots left on roster, but I don’t think he’s going to for very long. So get on that. follow us on Instagram, join our free Facebook Group Muscles by Brussels Radio. And yeah, hit us up if you have any suggestions or stuff you want us to react to. I’m loving that lately. Once again, my name is Dani and we will talk to you soon. Bye.