Ep 193 – Stop Chasing The Mold with Coach Sawyer

TRANSCRIPT:

Hey, everyone. Welcome to Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels Radio. I’m Sawyer.

Dani:

And I’m Dani.

Sawyer:

And this is episode 193. Oh, my God.

Dani:

Awesome.

Sawyer:

Only three times.

Dani:

I think it took Ben more times than that to get it the first time.

Sawyer:

So amazing.

Dani:

The outro is really hard. Jock Mo and I screw it up regularly, actually, because it’s different every time.

Sawyer:

Okay, fair enough.

Dani:

Well, hey, everybody, welcome back. Um, I’m really excited we have Sawyer here today, which is our new coach that we’ve hinted at on many podcasts now.

Sawyer:

Very excited to be here. So very lucky.

Dani:

Excited to introduce him and talk about some. Talk about some physique based stuff. So first, no pressure or anything, but tell, tell, tell them a little bit about you.

Sawyer:

Yeah, so I love talking about body image stuff. I. One of my, like, quintessential phrases, I guess you could call it, is I’m always telling clients, like, who wants to be ripped but miserable? Like, I just constantly am thinking about that because there are several points in my fitness journey where I felt like, exactly like that, where I made improvements, should have been very happy, but yet was, like, torturing myself for no reason.

And so I was like, you know, I should probably focus on this, like, mental health aspect of fitness too. And ever since I did that and started actually, you know, trying to, you know, prevent these kind of negative thoughts. Or maybe not prevent, but like, ward off the effects of them because I think everybody has them. It’s just you don’t give them as much credit anymore and you have to, like, consciously consume, like, positive stuff.

Dani:

Yes. Which now you make much of.

Sawyer:

Right. And now I’m trying to contribute to that because I think you got to pay it forward. And it also helps me remind myself, like, why I’m doing this and what feels best to me. Um, but yeah, I think, I think that all started from a place of, like, thinking that I only worked out or that I only cared about fitness because I didn’t like my body. But I think the farther I got away from that idea, I had to be a little bit brave and be like, maybe, maybe I do it for other reasons.

And then once I got away from that self loathing type stuff, never satisfied type mentality, I finally felt like, oh, man, I actually like this stuff. That’s why I do it. So I realized I worked out despite not liking my body, not because I didn’t like my body.

Dani:

Right.

Sawyer:

And that was a big, like, mind grenade.

Dani:

And I remember you told me you started lifting, like, pretty young actually.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

Was that Just because your dad lifted.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

Okay.

Sawyer:

Well, it was a big, big part of it. But I also was, like, a smaller kid, so I was like, constantly. And then I did this thing where I wear, like, really small clothes to like, make myself look bigger.

Dani:

There’s a lot of full grown men that do that now.

Sawyer:

Yeah. I’m, like, talking about it like, this is a weird thing, but mediums are definitely a thing. And I mean, I probably still kind of do that with the tank top thing. But at any rate. At any rate. Yeah, I just. I felt, like, different than in body than a lot of my peers. And I felt like.

I think I, in my formative years, convinced myself that that was, like, why I wasn’t confident or why I didn’t feel good or whatever. Something that I didn’t do well with women or something like that. Or like, it was just, like a weird insecurity that I had kind of cultivated.

Dani:

Yeah. That’s so interesting to me. I mean, I’ve obviously heard other guys say that too. Like, even Robert, his big motivation was he was, like, 89 pounds in eighth grade or something like that. But as a. As a girl, like, growing up in the 90s, there was no small enough.

Sawyer:

Yeah. Remember what plus size used to look like and that.

Dani:

I was thinking about that the other day. I remember seeing, like, tabloids with, like, Britney Spears on the COVID being like, she’s getting fat. And it’s like, what?

Sawyer:

Yeah. You know what’s weird about that? And something I’ve come to, like, get really interested in later. But, like, what was weird about that was, like, growing up, the only girls that I found attractive were, like, the ones with bigger thighs that were a little thicker.

And so I thought it was weird. And it was. So it wasn’t this, like, culturally conditioned thing. I know, for me, because that was the time where skinniness was praised the most highly and women all wanted to be small.

Dani:

Yep.

Sawyer:

But I was, like, consciously, like, not. Like, my first TV crush, I think, was like, Topanga from Boy Meets World.

Dani:

I mean. Oh, I think she awakened a lot. She’s a lot of people.

Sawyer:

Yeah, she’s gorgeous. But also, she had a little bit of thickness. And I was like, I love that. And then I was like, where are all these girls?

Dani:

Yeah.

Sawyer:

You know what I mean? So it was kind of. It’s kind of trippy. What we think people want and then what. And what we end up chasing. Even though reality is different, like, the.

Dani:

Media shapes so much, we see that a lot. I see that a lot in men. Like grown men now that want to be like super jacked and super ripped. And like, most women are not into that.

Sawyer:

Yeah, no, it’s. Well, it’s. I mean, it’s weird because you’ll be at like a Marvel movie and then like Chris Hemsworth will pull his shirt off and the women will be like, whoa or whatever, or like Henry Cavill.

Dani:

Or something like that.

Sawyer:

But I don’t know. It’s weird because it depends on who you ask.

Dani:

I think on TV versus in real life are very different things also.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

Because like, if you saw. Well, first of all, Henry Cavill and Chris Hemsworth, like, their faces, I think definitely help a lot.

Sawyer:

That’s true. Let’s not end Brad Pitt too. We have to really get this through our heads, guys. It’s not all about the body. You gotta look like. Women care a lot about this. Okay.

Dani:

I mean, in general, probably more, I think.

Sawyer:

Yeah, I would say so too. I mean, and that’s kind of what I’m talking about. When I get interested in the research of like, what people find attractive is not so much because I care now. Like, I’m in a committed long term relationship. But I’m always curious about like, what it was that drove me towards these more extreme and more extreme, like, oh, I want to get fitter and fitter and bigger and leaner.

You know what I mean? And I think that I had ended up just convincing myself. It was like, that’s what people cared about and that’s how people respected people and whatever.

Dani:

Isn’t that like a joke though? Guys go to the, go to the gym to get women, but they end up like, mostly just getting compliments from other men.

Sawyer:

It’s so true though. Like, you get a certain point. I mean, like, I tell this to all my clients too. I’m like, look, you’re gonna get a certain point of fitness at, you know, maybe a year or two in of doing this consistently where everybody, like, you’re just. It’s like being a millionaire versus a multimillionaire.

Like, at a certain point, most like 95% of people just cannot distinguish you from the rest of fitness people and whatever. And it’s so funny because you in that world are like, oh, no, everybody sees how big this guy is versus me. And like, nobody cares.

Dani:

Yeah, it’s like when a non competitive bodybuilder goes to a bodybuilding show and they’re just sitting there like, I don’t get it. Yeah, they all look great and they all look the same, but each of.

Sawyer:

Them are like, oh, my God, that guy’s lax. And like, whatever. You know what I mean? Like, we’re always. When you’re in that world, you think it matters so much more and the differences are so huge, but, like, to everybody else in the world, they’re like, it looks the same, right?

Dani:

Yeah, yeah. And I think that that was kind of when I was like, oh, what do you want to talk about today? You said you wanted to talk about sort of like creating your own or, like chasing your own aesthetic goals versus, like, the way I interpret it was like, versus, like, fitting a particular mold.

Sawyer:

Yeah. And that could be the mold of like a competition, but, you know, because that’s like an objective standard but also like the mold that you kind of perceive the media or the people around you to, like, respect or whatever. Because there’s so many cool athletes. I mean, just last, you know, a couple of weeks ago, and Plant Built, like, at the Mr. America competition, I saw so many different kinds of physiques.

Dani:

Yeah.

Sawyer:

But they were all super fit and all super impressive. And when you start to understand, like, the different sports and the ways that these people need to look or to, you know, train to eat.

Dani:

Yeah.

Sawyer:

Like Nick. To be able to perform the way they do, it’s just like mind boggling how cool it is. And you just kind of get inspired by that. And I think when you have that, I think the diversity invites, like, healthier thoughts.

Dani:

Absolutely.

Sawyer:

When you have like a one narrative about what is healthy and what is fit and what is attractive, you start to chase that kind of dogmatically. Whereas if you can see all the different paths that you could go, you’re a little bit more measured about it and you’re not so like, oh, I have to do this. Or else, like, you could be like, oh, no, I could move laterally and do this sport or I could look this way. It’s just so much healthier, I think, to have a more flexible.

Dani:

Yeah.

Sawyer:

Approach like that.

Dani:

Unfortunately, like, on social media, bodybuilding style training and bodybuilding style goals gets a lot of attention, like, way more than it rightfully should in, like, the spectrum of sports. Like bodybuilding is this little sliver, but online it’s the shiny flashy. Because it’s the cool thing. It’s a cool thing to look at.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

And social media is very visual, but I think it gives more weight in our minds to that particular aesthetic versus all of the different aesthetics. Which is one of my favorite things about Plant built because we started as a bodybuilding only team and then we started Adding all of these other sports, and even to me at the time, I was like,

God damn. Like this. These people are stronger than I will probably ever be. And that’s not what I would have picked. That’s not what I would have thought that looked like.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

You know what I mean?

Sawyer:

Humbling. And it’s also really inspiring and being around those people. It’s weird how when you hang around a certain type of. I mean, I know it’s like, you know, mindset motivation 101, but, like, you hang around a certain type of people and you invariably have to compare yourself to them. Like, we’re all mirrors of each other. And so if you’re hanging around people with a healthier mindset about their body and they have a little bit more flexibility with how they do things and

how they measure success, it’s just going to be so much easier to find that about yourself. And it might not be the same path. It probably won’t be because you care about different things and you have different things that you like to do and training and whatever. But seeing other people be successful in different ways is so healthy, especially when it comes to physique or sport.

Dani:

After the Olympics, I saw a lot of reels and stuff going around that were like, this is what we think fit looks like. And it would show a few fitness models, and then I’d be like, this is what actual gold medal Olympic athletes look like.

Sawyer:

I love that so much.

Dani:

You know, some of them looked like very kind of what I would just call, like, normal.

Sawyer:

Normal. Walking around, you know, you wouldn’t peg. Peg. That person is like, wow, that’s an Olympic gold medalist on the street. But there they are looking like normal people. It’s cool.

Dani:

It’s really cool. And I actually want to do an episode. I feel like I’m finally ready. It’s taken me years, but I feel like I’m finally ready to do it. An episode on, like, health at every size, which I feel like is a really touchy subject, but I’ll give the brief version. I don’t love the idea of health at every size, but I think the narrow field that we think healthy is is not even close.

Like, I think it’s a much bigger spectrum that you can be not just healthy, but, like, super healthy. And a lot of people think, like, oh, well, if I gain some body fat, for example, I’m going to be less healthy. This is a concession where oftentimes that’s actually more healthy.

Sawyer:

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I think that your voice right in that space is so needed because right now, it’s pretty much resigned to people who think body fat has no bearing on health and fitness and then people who think it’s the only thing to focus on. So I think there’s a very big gap that needs to be filled in terms of some people, some fitness professionals with some experience and some knowledge who can insert some context and give people a

better idea. Because, yeah, I think people get. When there’s a vacuum like that in this space, people tend to get polarized. They don’t really know who’s telling the truth.

Dani:

And it has been such a touchy subject for such a long time now, but I actually feel like the body positivity community is imploding on itself at the moment because of Ozempic.

Sawyer:

Oh, yeah. It’s.

Dani:

I mean, it’s kind of. It’s kind of fascinating to watch in a kind of heartbreaking way. But, yeah, all the people that were like, rah, rah, health at every size, like, all of the sudden are small. The cracks in that armor are starting to show, and it’s making people ask a lot of questions.

Sawyer:

I mean, that’s kind of how it has to be. If there’s something that’s like, you know, demonstrably fallacious, it needs to kind of come down, but it doesn’t need to be like a spectacle. It should be like just a measured, like, yeah, you know, you guys were wrong about some stuff, you’re right about some stuff, and let’s just kind of find the truth. And I think that’s what. That’s exactly why I think I’m excited to hear your take on it.

Dani:

I have so much to say about it, but I’m not going to go down that rabbit hole today. But when talking about sort of creating your own aesthetic that you’re working towards. Is that what you’d still say that you’re doing right now? Like, working towards your own?

Sawyer:

Yeah. And I appreciate you refocusing me, because I could definitely go down some rabbit holes. Yeah, I think that’s what I have eventually landed on. Like, sounds the best to me because, I mean, even when we’re at Mr. America and I’ve seen all these crazy physiques and all these strength athletes and all these people that looked amazing and did amazing things, I was still like, I want to have, like, this part of this and this part of that, I get kind of like, you know, like, to quote,

like, David Bowie, he would say, like, I’m a collector. Like, he likes pieces and parts of things. And kind of assembling them in a collage of who he became. And I thought that was the coolest quote ever, because I’m not, like, anywhere near the creative level of David Bowie, obviously, but I really.

Dani:

He was too good for this world.

Sawyer:

Seriously, though. And I love. I love getting inspiration from so many different arenas and pulling them in and being like, yeah, that resonates with me. And then I’m going to take that with me. And that’s really all we are. We’re like. None of us are, like, original thoughts. We are all, like an amalgamation of somebody else’s. Really cool thoughts that really resonated with who we are.

Dani:

Right.

Sawyer:

That we happened upon in our journey. And I love that thought because. Yeah. So, anyway, I’m getting sidetracked again. Look at me.

Dani:

I can talk about David Bowie all day. So he’s one of my favorite people on Earth.

Sawyer:

So. Yeah. But I think that idea really resonated with me, and I’m just like, yeah, I just want to create my own physique that doesn’t really look exactly like anybody else. Whereas before, that was a scary thing for me. Before, when I first started out, I was like, man, I wish I just had somebody that was like my body structure that I could just, like, aspire to and follow their exact path.

Like a blueprint. Right. But there’s never going to be anything like that because I wanted it easy. Like, everybody, when they first start out on a journey, they want it easy, they want it fast.

Dani:

They just want to be told what to do. Let me follow this thing and I will get there. I did the same thing. I remember. So back then, it was like, Oxygen magazine. The Internet was not what it is now. Oxygen magazine is where all the muscle women were in that magazine. And I would find a model that was five foot seven.

Sawyer:

Oh, and be like, well, I’m also.

Dani:

And then I’d read what she was eating, and I’d be like, so if I just eat those macros and do this training, I will look like her. I mean, I was 19 years old. Cut me a little bit of slack. But it took me longer than I would like to admit to realize. Like, shit, that is not how that works.

Sawyer:

Yeah. But, I mean, it got you inspired. And then you felt like, okay, there are people that look like not just the norm, which was good. There’s some good elements to that, I think. But, yeah, at the end of the day, the acceptance of, like, the fact that you are.

I mean, to like, quote Fight Club, even though you’re not A little snowflake. You are different than everybody else, and there is going to be just slight differences from all your idols and everybody around you. So it’s. It’s cool to not be afraid of that.

Dani:

Yeah.

Sawyer:

And to just lean in and just be like, you know what? I’m going to figure this puzzle out. That is me.

Dani:

It’s tough, too, because, like, we do have our own genetic ceilings in different arenas. I’m not just talking about, like, how lean can you get or whatever, but, like, literally how big your joints or how resilient are your joints. How. How. How big is your rib cage?

That’s going to determine how small your waist can get, just as an example. But if you have not sort of reached those limits, you don’t actually know where they are yet. So in your mind, like, the sky is the limit, but there might actually be a limit before the sky.

Sawyer:

I know, and I know that’s a hard pill to swallow, but I also. I think it’s a good thing to find, like, your limitations are your greatest teachers. And it’s like, for me, I don’t have, like, the smallest waist or, like, bone structure for that, and I have a pretty big appetite, so I’ve been, like, over the last 10 years, skewing higher body fat than I ever did before.

But it also is cool to figure out, like, oh, but I can get pretty strong if I do that. And I also don’t mind the aesthetic a little bit of, like. So you kind of. You play with stuff that has become, you know, Whereas one person might see it as a cage that you can’t break out of, you can kind of turn it into something that is unique about you.

That’s kind of cool. And I think that’s what a lot of athletes who reach top levels find out about themselves is like, they. They start down one path, and then they realize, like, oh, I’m actually amazing at this thing, or, like, whatever, and then they can take that and run with it.

Dani:

I think it does require, like, a fair bit of bravery, though, to just. Anytime you’re gonna do something that isn’t really, like, the status quo and there’s not a bunch of people doing the same thing. It’s just harder and sometimes a bit lonelier. Also true. When I started competing, I competed in figure because I was, like, built for it. Like, I was built for that category. My shape was like, yes, this is what you do.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

But that was over 10 years ago. That category has changed significantly, and I cannot keep up with that. And it’s left me, like, okay, do I just, like, keep trying to force myself into this category, or do I realize, like, I’m still me and the category has changed? But I, you know, I can only change so much from here, and it’s something I thought that I was really, really good at. Now it’s like. I mean, I’m not bad at it or anything, but it’s. It’s different because the sport changed.

Sawyer:

Yeah. So Ben says, I’m going to out him right now because he’s like. He’s like, I kind of disagree with Dani. Like, I feel like she’s. She could kill it in this. And he knows way more about competition than I do, so I’m like. Kind of like, yeah, I think you’re probably right, man. And I also know you, and you’re very humble, so throw that in there.

Dani:

I don’t know, man, but those are big girls now.

Sawyer:

I know you’re looking up there like, holy crap. Like I was a couple of weeks ago. But the point is, like, you learn about your body and what limitations you may or may not have, and you can perceive them as limitations, or you could just kind of turn it into, like, well, this is kind of what I have to work with, and I’m going to do the best I can with it.

Dani:

Right.

Sawyer:

And. And that’s what I like about fitness at this. This stage of my career is like, even though I don’t. I’ve never competed, I don’t really plan to compete. I was flirting with the idea back when I was there, and everybody was like, yeah, you could probably do well, whatever. And I was like, maybe. But at the same time, I’m like, it feels like a concession at this point to, like, give up on what I think is aesthetic and what I care about, growing and whatever.

So that was kind of one thing that kind of pushed me away from it ultimately was like, that would be kind of cool to be on stage and, like, have that experience, and you’ll get some feedback.

Dani:

And it could. I mean, it could. I still think, like, I think you could do it, but for me, it’s not even about, like, oh, changing your goals aesthetically, because I don’t think. I don’t think they’re that different that it would, like, harm you in a competition or anything. For me, my advice would always be, like, the actual prep part is so fucking brutal.

Sawyer:

Oh, yeah, that’s a good thing.

Dani:

Do you want to put yourself through that just to achieve a certain look for a short period of time? Like, that’s A really tough question.

Sawyer:

It’s a big concession. Yeah. Because then you’re giving up some progress you could be making and like mental health, you know, whatever.

Dani:

Almost certainly, you know, you can make it to the other side without being like a mental disaster. Like you can do it. But I don’t think anybody is making it to the other side of a competition coming out like with better mental health than they went into it with.

Sawyer:

Yeah, yeah.

Dani:

So there’s some repairs that need to be done afterwards, I would say. And I think if someone’s heart’s not totally in it, it’s a no.

Sawyer:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so, yeah, I think I realized at some point I’m like, yeah, I’m just not that into that world. I do find it fascinating. I was there all day at the bodybuilding show at Mr. America, but it was one of those things where I was just like, wow, these people have worked hard and done a lot of stuff, but I don’t know if that’s for me.

But yeah, ultimately I think I trained just because I find it interesting to constantly be questioning where you want to go next, but also like figuring out the puzzle of like, oh, how do I make this more likely to happen? And like, I don’t know. I guess that’s why I’m a coach because I just like figuring things out in that respect.

Dani:

Yeah. And I honestly think that’s probably better because most people don’t want to bodybuild nor should they competitively body build. So to try to take like a non competitive bodybuilder, that’s a new client, and be like, I will fit you into this bodybuilding thing. Like a lot of people have bodybuilding type goals. They want to, you know, have a flatter stomach or bigger arms or whatever. But, you know, most of them have other goals too.

Sawyer:

Yeah, well, that’s, I mean it goes back to that thing where we’re saying like, okay, most people just want to be perceived or they want to perceive themselves in a certain way. And once you reach a certain level, like, nobody’s going to be like, oh, that guy was, you know, 5% body fat leaner and so he’s better or whatever. Like once you have abs, basically everybody’s like, oh, that’s like, you are fitness.

Yeah, you are fitness. Now I’ve had some longer term clients who I was like, get ready. Because you’ve, now that you’ve been successful with this, people are going to start looking you more and more like you’re an alien. Like, how did you do this? You know, what’s the secret? Whatever kind of stuff.

And it really just comes down to, like, figuring out for yourself, like, what drives you, what makes you tick. That’s a big part of, you know, coaching people. And then also, like, how to stay in it long enough that you start to really look different than most people or, like, feel different.

Dani:

Yeah. And it is true. As soon as you look a certain way, people will come to you, not just like you’re an alien, but also like you’re an expert.

Sawyer:

Yeah, that’s true, too.

Dani:

It’s kind of dangerous.

Sawyer:

It is. That’s. Now we got the Internet the way it is. Right.

Dani:

And boom, the coaching industry on the Internet was born.

Sawyer:

Yeah. So fun. But again, it’s one of those things where it’s like, you know, it’s going to suss itself out until people are, you know, we kind of. I think the public is still, like, the Internet is still relatively new. And also people are not very scientifically literate.

So I think education needs to get better around it. But I hopefully that the Internet, once it’s been around long enough, we’ll have better metrics for which content do we promote and which do we kind of down. But I don’t know.

Dani:

I don’t know. My outlook here is not optimistic.

Sawyer:

It’s true.

Dani:

What content promotes the most? Clicks and advertisement watches.

Sawyer:

True. It’s more. It’s so much more money driven, which is unfortunate.

Dani:

I have heard. Not. I mean, we haven’t noticed it. Luckily, knock on wood. Things going very wood here. But I’ve. I’ve heard that the coaching industry is like, kind of croaking.

Sawyer:

Is it?

Dani:

Right now?

Sawyer:

Wow.

Dani:

Yeah. I’ve heard that from not just fitness coaches, but, like, other types of coaches too. Like.

Sawyer:

Well, I think that’s what happens in any market. Like, you get saturated and then, like, certain people kind of like, reveal themselves to be kind of charlatans or like.

Dani:

I think so.

Sawyer:

It’s just really good marketing. And then they kind of go away. And then.

Dani:

Yeah. I mean, it definitely, like, Covid kind of.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

Blew it up.

Sawyer:

And then people probably get more skeptical and more. A little bit more, you know, wary of where they spend their money in this industry.

Dani:

Yes.

Sawyer:

You know, I think a lot of.

Dani:

People have been burned. Yeah, I know. Because Giacomo will get off of a call with somebody, like a strategy call, and be like, man, like, that’s such and such company, like, effed this person up big time. And I’m just like, oh, that sucks. That’s sad. But Then I completely understand their sort of, like, hesitation.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

Because what’s to say if we say we can do blah, blah, blah for you? I bet you the last person said the same thing.

Sawyer:

Yeah, yeah, well, I, well, that’s what I like about vegan proteins actually was I had those same kind of suspicions. I’ve been, you know, I’ve been exper. I have experience with some of these coaching companies that I didn’t really think we’re doing right. The right things, but you guys have been around for so long, and then also the way you interact with people is so genuine and the information you put out is so good and so, so not hyperbole and so, like, tried and true from, from

what I had experienced that I was like, okay, there’s a lot of green flags going on here, but it’s like, yeah, so, so hats off to you. Bow down to you. But it’s also like, not everybody in the space is going to have put in that or know how to distinguish because some people are just really good at talking a big game and.

Dani:

Yeah, well, it’s also. It’s like, it’s not the sexy information. Yeah, right. That’s the, that’s the crappy thing about it is, like, the stuff that works, the stuff that is actually, like, valuable beyond 12 weeks or beyond, like, reaching one small goal. It’s not. It’s not the catchiest, flashiest stuff to watch or learn.

Sawyer:

Yeah. And coaching is always going to be a thing, though, because there are just. It’s too broad a topic to be trying to figure out. Okay. This is how you need to, like, map your life around when you don’t understand the individual yet.

Dani:

Right.

Sawyer:

So I like that you guys stay away from, you know, sketchy topics like that where you’re like, oh, here’s the formula.

Dani:

Yeah. Oh, so tough, though, because it’s like, okay, if I. There’s types. Right? We’ve talked about this before. There’s types of clients. If I like, oh, this type of client. There is kind of like a very basic rubric that will work for this person or this person. But yeah, when you’re creating content like a podcast or a YouTube, it’s like you’re just sending out the most general statement you can that will work for most people.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

But, yeah, it leaves a lot of. Yeah, like, I don’t trade secrets. That’s what it feels like. Oh, I have the answer, but I’m not gonna tell you on this podcast.

Sawyer:

Well, no, it just wouldn’t. It wouldn’t make sense. To give out, like, enumerate all the different, you know, what if strategies that you do at every point. And I tell my clients, when I first start with them, I’m like, hey, look, this program I’m giving you right now is a guess. It’s a guess based on what you told me.

Dani:

Right.

Sawyer:

It makes you tick and you like and fits into your life easily. But they’re invariably gonna be pain points that we don’t perceive, we could not perceive at this point. So I want you to become like. I mean, you gotta be careful who you tell us to, but I want you to be like a big complainer when it comes to, like.

And I know that sounds weird, but I’m like, trying to get them to be comfortable with voicing things to me. Because sometimes people will just kind of bury things, sweep it under the rug throughout the coaching process.

Dani:

They just want tell me what to do, I’m gonna do.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

And I always say there’s certain types of clients, if I told them to march off a cliff, they would.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

And that sounds like, oh, what a great quality to have. But, like, it can be the most.

Sawyer:

Detrimental quality because then they don’t have you there anymore. And then they’re like, well, I don’t really. I never really like this thing. So you know what I mean? And that eventually is going to rub them. You know, I always tell people, oh, man, I have a lot of. I always tell people things. But there’s this quote, I don’t even remember where it’s from, but it said, it’s not the size of the mountain that defeats you.

It’s the pebble in your shoe. So, like, if you don’t get rid of those pebbles in your shoe that are kind of wearing your foot raw, that’s so good. You’re gonna. You’re just gonna stop at some point. You’re not gonna know why. You’re gonna blame yourself. And you think, oh, wow, I really guess I must not want this that bad.

Dani:

Right?

Sawyer:

And then they end up back at square one. Like, I haven’t worked out in a year or whatever. And so I’m always telling people when I work with them, like, please, I rather risk people over complaining than under complain, because then I can really get to the heart of. Yeah, what is it that’s really bothering you? And if they’re complaining about every little thing, I’ll know.

Like, okay, it’s a mindset thing. We need to just. There’s gonna be some discomfort. Like, you can do this, but most of the time it’s people that have swept things under the rug for so long that they didn’t even realize it bothers them. They’re just like, oh, I know, I have to do this exercise. I’m like, no, you don’t.

Dani:

Right? Yes, yes, exactly.

Sawyer:

Oh, man, that kind of stuff.

Dani:

So many. So I have clients that are like, I really hate this exercise. And I’m like, okay, well, there’s like four other exercises that we can do that will check the same box, but then occasionally we get into that rhythm. And then finally they’re like, I really don’t like the low reps on this. And I’m like, well, too bad, so sad. That’s what we’re doing on that one. So it really just depends on.

Sawyer:

But at that point when they’ve gone through that with you, they know all the options. And so they can say like, well, on the balance, this was the least friction one. There’s never going to be a situation in which you don’t have to work hard for something. And I get that. They understand that, most of them.

But yeah, it’s the idea of like, oh, there’s one way to do things. And they’ve probably encountered a fitness professional in their past who told them, this is how you have to do things. And so they just kind of ran with it. The rest of the world, which.

Dani:

That, honestly is probably my favorite. There’s a couple things that are my favorite things about bodybuilding. Not competitive bodybuilding, but bodybuilding, like the act of building one’s body. There’s nothing you have to do. Yeah, it’s pretty liberal versus when we’re talking about people that want to get into powerlifting. At the end of the day, you have got to be able to squat, bench and deadlift.

When I think that’s why bodybuilding can be such a good catch all for people because, oh, you got, you got knee injuries or you got shoulder injuries. We can, we can work around it, but for some sports there is, there are dead ends, like, once you get past a certain point. So I think that’s why so many people end up there.

Plus, I think it’s just like, safer for your joints in general. Like, there’s a lot of really good things about it, but it’s. Yeah. When we’re all trying to look like the same prototype, that I think, yeah, it gets problematic because it’s never going to happen.

Sawyer:

No, it’s true, but I think, I think especially as people get older, they get more reasonable with their, with their physique demands and they Kind of are like, I mean, you know, to. On the other hand, the more you get into it, the more you can, like, kind of push the goalpost and say, oh, I don’t, you know, I’m not there yet. I’m not there yet. Yeah, but as long as you have a good head on your shoulders and. And obviously, if you have a coach that’s been through this and with a lot of people,

they can kind of be like, look, this is what you said mattered to you. This is how we’re going to train for it. And this is the way that avoids all the, like, pain points in your life and all the, you know, responsibilities in your life. And yes, you’re right. I like the idea that bodybuilding can serve a lot of different types of goals without, you know, inflaming some of people’s, like, things they can’t move around or just bother them so much.

Dani:

Yeah. It is really hard, I think, to find that place where it’s like, okay, I want to honor my own limitations, but I also want to push these boundaries at the same time.

Sawyer:

It’s a hard place to be.

Dani:

It’s the hardest place to be to figure out and, you know, to simplify. It’s like, am I being a little bitch or am I pushing myself too hard?

Sawyer:

Like, I love how you put the finer point on it. Yeah.

Dani:

But, I mean, that’s what it feels like sometimes, right? Like, am I just wimping out right now, or should I really not train today because my shoulder is bothering me?

Sawyer:

That’s a good one. That’s.

Dani:

I mean, that’s a pro. I had that actual conversation with myself this week. Like, are there things I could do around this today, or should I just give it a rest? Because it’s, like, really talking to me. And, you know, I’ve been doing this for a very long time, and some days I still don’t have the answer for myself, you know, because you live.

Sawyer:

In your own head and your own emotions, and you, you know, as a coach, like, how powerful emotions are when it comes to decision making. And so, yeah, I mean, that’s another reason why coaches are so great, is that once you get to know somebody in what direction they tend to trend emotionally.

You can kind of build a little bit of a buffer or a caveat in your mind to be like, okay, well, they tend to think this way, so I’m going to kind of. You know what I mean? You get used to their biases and your own.

Dani:

Yeah. And I think even there are pushers and There are holder backers, and I even think that can change over a lifetime. Which one of those people you are.

Sawyer:

Absolutely.

Dani:

And that’s tricky too, I think.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

Like, you’re like, oh, I’ve been pushing myself so hard for so long. I need to, like, I need to take it easy. And then one day you’re like, am I even pushing myself at all anymore? Like, it’s. It’s really, really weird dance.

Sawyer:

You have to.

Dani:

Tricky stuff.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

So anyway, we. I went down a rabbit hole there.

Sawyer:

It’s fun, though. Rabbit holes are fun?

Dani:

Oh, yes. They’re. They’re super fun for me. I don’t know if they’re fun for you guys.

Sawyer:

I hope so.

Dani:

So what is. If you had to sort of define it, what is the kind of, like, physique or aesthetic or goals that you’re chasing right now?

Sawyer:

That’s tough. I don’t know how to put words to it, but I’ll try. I really like. I guess I’ll say it this way. I like limb focused physiques, if that makes sense.

Dani:

I’ve never heard it put that.

Sawyer:

I don’t even know how to say it. I’m so embarrassed right now.

Dani:

No, I know.

Sawyer:

I get what you’re saying, but you know what I’m saying, so, like, bigger arms, bigger shoulders, bigger legs, smaller torso kind of thing. But then again, I like Serge New Bray, and he’s got that massive chest, so I don’t know, it’s really amorphous for me. I’ve always tried to be like, oh, this is, you know, the physique that I really like or whatever, Frank Zane or whoever.

But I just. I can’t say. It’s kind of like a thing that’s constantly changing in my mind. But what I can say is that I’m still motivated to get it and get closer to it, whatever it is. So I feel like I’m in this constant process of, like, self discovery, which I think is what’s fun about fitness to me, because I’m like, oh, I improved this. That’s cool.

Do I like that or do I want to down, you know, keep that on the back burner or. So it’s kind of just one of those things where, Yeah, I don’t. I can’t really put words to what I. What I’m really going for, other than there’s a certain aesthetic that I like at any given point, and I might change my direction based on. It’s kind of a whimsical thing, to be honest.

And. And I like to Tell people now. Like, you know, for a lot of people when they first start fitness, it’s like a feel pressured and feel like not comfortable in their bodies kind of thing. But you, once you get to that threshold of like, oh, now everybody just thinks you’re fit and you feel like you’re fit. Especially if you can convince yourself of that, it becomes more fun because then you’re just self exploring and creating constantly and being like, you know, oh, that looks

cool. I would love to be able to do that or that. I mean, I like that muscle group. I’m gonna try to bring that up. Like never trained. Adductors grow, you know, coming into this. And then I started training them and forearms and stuff. So there’s a bunch of stuff you can play with.

But I have a really hard time putting words to what I actually want to look like. I do know it involves a smaller waist and bigger shoulders and I love having bigger arms and if I can keep blowing those up, that would be awesome. And legs too. I think big legs look awesome.

Dani:

Yeah. It sounds actually kind of similar to Giacomo.

Sawyer:

Oh, really?

Dani:

Actually, yeah. But his. But his training has changed so much as he’s gotten older. He used to do powerlifting too, but he’s got all these like little nagging injuries that, you know, that’s the. I think that’s the tricky part is like, you can’t ignore those injuries because eventually they’re just like something you’re working around forever.

Sawyer:

That sounds uncomfortable.

Dani:

Yeah. His training has changed so much over the years. It’s pretty crazy.

Sawyer:

Well, it’s cool. I mean, like, that’s testament to the fact that he was able to change his mind about stuff. And I think that there are a lot of people that become dogmatic where something works for them early on. It’s like gambling. Something works for you early on. Then you’re like, oh, this is the way I know it. And it’s just different each stage of the way. Not even because your body changes.

Because it does. I mean, it’s going to be harder to build muscle the more you build. But in addition to that, you might actually be going about it with an old formula. Like you haven’t thought about it in a while. Like, yeah, you don’t even care about the same things anymore at the same goals and you just kind of run the same old program software, you know?

Dani:

Yeah. So it’s definitely not his. Yeah, I could like, I could put phases to his training that are so interesting.

Sawyer:

The eras.

Dani:

Yeah, this one, this one’s so weird because it’s like, lot. It’s a lot of isolation training.

Sawyer:

Interesting.

Dani:

Kind of on the higher rep side of stuff, but, like, almost every day, like, he’s in the gym almost every day.

Sawyer:

High frequency.

Dani:

Yeah. Which. Mine is almost like the dead ass opposite of that. Like, mine’s heavier, lower reps, but I’m in there four days a week, sometimes three days.

Sawyer:

Are you guys consuming, like, different content or like. Like, how do you guys end up so, like, polar opposite? Because you think people hang out so much, you would have similar training styles or phases that they go through together.

Dani:

You know, his working around his injuries. And I’ve done his training programs with him before, and I did it even for a couple weeks, and then I was like, okay, I gotta do something else.

Sawyer:

This is.

Dani:

That’s enough of that for me.

Sawyer:

I can’t do high rep stuff. I don’t like it very much.

Dani:

I can’t. For certain muscle groups, I can, but for every muscle group, I’d rather die, honestly.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

And I just feel like he’s probably closer to his ceiling than I am. Honestly. He’s been training for way longer than I have. Like, he’s been training since he was 17 or something like that. And he’s 42, 43. I can’t remember. He gets mad every time. I can’t remember. And he was more consistent, like, through Covid and when we had the kids, he still got all of his stuff in. I did not get stuff in for a while.

Sawyer:

So that’s another thing. You got to be some level of selfish to get stuff in. And I don’t mean Giacomo selfish. I mean, like, everybody. I mean, everybody’s got to have, like. Because. Because I always have these clients who are, like, super kind and super generous with their time, and I’m like, okay. There’s got to be a line, though.

Dani:

Yeah. Yep.

Sawyer:

Yeah. I mean, and that’s a weird conversation to have to try to convince somebody to be less nice, but, yes, Giacomo.

Dani:

Had that conversation with me many times. Like, you got to go. You have to go to the gym. Which is also like, you know, we have a weird marriage when that’s the conversation. And it doesn’t end in, like, a fight. Like, listen, woman, get to the gym. I need you to go.

Sawyer:

Well, if you said you want something and then you’re not acting that way, he’s just trying to support you in that.

Dani:

Yeah.

Sawyer:

It’d be one thing if he was like, you’re gross. Go to the gym.

Dani:

Yeah. No, it was not that.

Sawyer:

A little bit.

Dani:

But I’d be like. But every time I leave, Daisy cries for like a half an hour and I can’t do it. And he’s like, just. That’s, that’s where we were at.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

At the time. So. Yeah. Mine is just, it’s, it’s, it’s heavier. It’s more compound movements. I mean, I don’t know, I guess mine is almost a little bit more powerful. No, it’s not power. Well, I do squat and I bench, but I don’t deadlift anymore. I rdl, but not actually deadlift, but I don’t know, I feel like mine is more of a mix

of a lot of different things. And I’m doing cardio, like formal cardio, because that’s another thing that I’m working on is just like, you know, having a healthier heart.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

Which is something I don’t want to say. I didn’t care about it when I was younger, but it almost felt like no. Me having a healthy heart is just a byproduct of all this stuff I do. And back like, I don’t know, 10 years ago it was like, the less cardio you can do, the better. That was like the whole thing 10 years ago. The more you can eat and the less cardio you can do while still getting lean, the better.

Sawyer:

Yeah. Well, that’s a good point. Like being looking into this stuff and learning as much as you can and learning from multiple different sources is a good way to prevent you from falling into traps of like trends basically. Because there’s always going to be any fitness industry people are going to be kind of glomming onto whatever idea that they think other people are attracted to and they think it’s cool and maybe they use it as a bait, like, hook thing or like their whole gimmick,

but it’ll convince a lot of people who, who just don’t know that much. Yeah, I know. It’s like kind of a privileged thing to be like, well, I know so much about fitness and so like, here’s how you’re going to figure it out. But I think that’s why having like a good mentor or a good coach who can like kind of do that research for you and then distill it down into what you specifically your personality needs to hear about whatever trends that come along.

Dani:

Yes.

Sawyer:

And then give them like a. I don’t know, like some context to everything that they think.

Dani:

Yeah. In that space and the, and the research changes, like that’s the thing. Like a lot of the evidence based bros don’t Want to admit, it’s like every 10 years, some kind of some semi major piece seems to have flipped a bit. You’re like, we just kind of have to be ready for that. So, you know, like, listen to the evidence. But also, you can’t take it as gospel all the time.

Sawyer:

I mean, yeah, to that point, like, it’s still in its infancy, this strength training, like, optimization kind of area. And yeah, we’re figuring out more than ever before, which is cool. It’s gotten kind of mainstream support.

Dani:

Yeah, I didn’t see that coming, honestly. Yeah. No.

Sawyer:

Oh, cool. No, Yeah. I mean, when I was coming up, it was like, it was like the bodybuilding.com forums and that was like gospel.

Dani:

Yeah. I mean, and that was a mess.

Sawyer:

Yeah, it really was. And I can understand why people came up in that era might have a hard time, like with the veganism thing and like, I don’t know, changing their training as they get older. But hopefully now, even, even if a lot of the information is crap, at least the fact that there’s so many different ways to get ripped and like, people see that.

Dani:

Yeah.

Sawyer:

That they can be like, okay, maybe not everything this guy says is the truth, and they can be a little bit more judicious.

Dani:

Yeah. And there’s a lot of, like, people that are not into the science of things. They’re just like bros or like old school bros that happen, but they happen to be right about a lot of things, you know? You know, they weren’t doing it in a laboratory, but they probably just trial and errored the crap out of some stuff and were like, this works.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

Better than this.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

So, you know, you gotta be pretty.

Sawyer:

Organized to figure that out. But it does work too. So, yeah, I commend people for that. That stuff too. It’s cool. But that’s why I, like, when I find professionals like you, like 3DMJ, like people that have done it, but also know the research and have like a measured, kind of holistic kind of vision of it all, and they kind of try to synthesize the most quintessential truths.

I mean, like, one thing you can tell from people like that that I’m describing is they’re very calculated about what they will say and they try not to say anything that even, even though it seems like colloquial, like common knowledge might not be actual truth and we can’t prove yet.

Dani:

Right.

Sawyer:

But they’ve seen it enough times to say, like, well, anecdotally, whatever.

Dani:

Yes. Yeah. I have so many of those, like, okay, I know the research says blah, blah, blah, but in my experience. And that’s actually how it was with reverse dieting.

Sawyer:

Really?

Dani:

I don’t know if you remember when that was like the thing everybody did after a really hard diet.

Sawyer:

Yes.

Dani:

Was like the research said reverse dieting was ideal.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

In practice, it failed every single time. Because nobody could do it.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

Because can you imagine if when Ben finished his competition prep, we were like, not even. It was like 50. Oh, it’s like, okay, have 50 calories extra for the next two weeks.

Sawyer:

So like, so tedious.

Dani:

Yeah.

Sawyer:

At that point.

Dani:

So tedious and just impossible. And crushing to people’s self esteem. That had just been so disciplined.

Sawyer:

Yeah.

Dani:

So that’s a good example of like. Well, the research says. But it doesn’t actually work that way.

Sawyer:

No, it’s. It’s cool that you’re able to, like, distinguish those things and. Yeah. I think when it comes to those more niche things anyway, it’s almost like an ego trip to feel like, you know, something extra with the science. But I think. Yeah. When it doesn’t pan out, you have to admit defeat. Otherwise you kind of become a little bit of a zealot in the fact that you cannot admit, like, when something is wrong.

Dani:

Yeah.

Sawyer:

And so you can be just as much of a zealot in the evidence space as the.

Dani:

Oh, and there are some. I can think of them off the top of my head. But there’s a lot of evidence that may be true on paper in a laboratory, and it is not applicable to a lot of people. People ask me about, oh, what is the ideal protein feeding times and windows, and I’m like, bro, hit your macros by the end of the day.

Like, let’s start there. Let’s get in a ballpark of your macros by the end of the day. You don’t even need to concern yourself with that at all. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Sawyer:

Well, it’s that analysis by paralysis thing or other way around paralysis by analysis thing where people think if they don’t have the perfect plan, it’s not going to work. But in truth, if you have a good enough plan and you believe in it enough, you will do pretty damn well. And then you can refine the stuff later that you feel like you still need to figure out. So just get started, people. That’s my message.

Dani:

All right, everybody, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels Radio. Feel free to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, if you’re not already following Sawyer, go ahead and follow him. It’s Soyboy Fitness.

Sawyer:

Yeah, Soy Boy Fitness Coaching.

Dani:

Soyboy Fitness Coaching. So be sure to follow him. If you got questions, anything we didn’t answer or you want to hear about, shoot us an email. Coacheganproteins.com and if you are interested in one on one coaching, go to our website, fill out an application. Sawyer has spots right now and he is fantastic. And you guys are going to adore him. I’m certain of it. All right, once again, my name is Dani.

Sawyer:

I’m Sawyer.

Dani:

And we’ll talk to you soon.

Sawyer:

Bye.