Ep 195 – Post-Prep Lessons

This might come as a surprise, but the hardest part of being a pro bodybuilder is actually AFTER the show. Join Alice & Ben for a deep dive into the physical and psychological demands of competition prep, as they become clearest in hindsight.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Alice:

Hello, everybody, and thank you so much for joining Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels Radio. My name is Alice and this is episode 196.

Ben:

All right, Alice. So today we’re talking about all things bodybuilding. I feel so lucky because the past couple podcasts that I’ve done and will continue to do, I’ve got part two scheduled with John coming up. We just recorded the first one a couple weeks ago. I feel like all the podcasts that I’m doing recently are just talking about bodybuilding, which is one of my favorite things to talk about.

So it really doesn’t feel like any sort of effort for me to come on here and just, you know, chat about, chat about something that. Something that I love. So you are pretty much exactly one month post competition season, I think, from the Mr. America competition, which I had the privilege and pleasure of being there in person to witness.

So I guess we could either start by talking about, how are you doing? How have things been going with your recovery phase? Or we could save that as kind of a teaser for the end and start more sequentially and work through the season and then get up to this point. So what are you feeling like doing?

Alice:

Let’s do sequentially because I feel like both you and I have a lot to say about our post season experiences.

Ben:

Yes, yes, we do. We do. Okay, so I will go, I’ll let you kick things off. When did you first kind of think about or know that you wanted to compete this year and what were kind of the steps that you needed to take before that to feel like you were ready to step on stage?

Alice:

So I had been building for a little over a year. I felt really good where, where I was in the process of the build. I had reached a point where it was getting very difficult to continue putting on weight. My body was resisting, but I still was very wishy washy about when exactly I wanted to compete.

And basically I watched a bodybuilding competition. I watched Mr. America and I was just so inspired and so pumped. I immediately just decided then and there, like, I had to start my cut immediately. As soon as I got back from that trip, the process began.

Ben:

It’s funny that that was actually the first time that we met was at that competition. I only remembered this this year at Mr. America because I was thinking about, oh, I’m gonna meet Alice for the first time. And I’m like, wait. Actually, we briefly met that last year when I wasn’t working for, for vegan proteins. At the time, I was just there kind of cheering on my friend who is competing in the show.

And I was sitting out in the hall eating God knows what, some weird bodybuilders. You, you came up and we had a nice little conversation in between all the craziness that was going on with the plant built team and you kind of running around with that. So, okay, so you came home from Mr. America. You’re super fired up after seeing all the athletes up there. You’re, you’re sick of the building.

Actually. Let’s, let’s, let’s stick with that for a little bit. So did you have, for that build, did you have any goals in mind for the. What you wanted to work on or improve before going into this season? Or was it like, oh, I want to bring up this body part or was it kind of just like. No, I just feel like I need to grow a little bit everywhere and get like a. Be in a good position to start prep from.

Alice:

In general, for me, the theme has been grow everywhere. Because I am such a petite person. Naturally I never, you know, I was never an athlete growing up. Well, that’s not true. I did roller skating very, very young. But after that there was no athletic goals in mind.

In fact, I hated, I hated any kind of sport. I hated gym. And that’s funny. It’s funny to think about that now. But yeah, so building has always just been put on as much size everywhere as possible. That’s, that, that’s been just me. What about you?

Ben:

So I think that I, as far as I remember, the first time that I wanted, that I thought about wanting to compete was in the spring of 2021. So I started lifting and started getting into fitness in the summer of 2019. I was in between my sophomore and junior year of college. I was studying exercise science. I thought I was going to kind of go the physical therapy route.

Ended up, you know, where I am now coaching. But at the time I was just looking for a way to learn a little bit more about some of the stuff that we were, some of the classes that I was taking and get a little bit more practical hands on work. So I’m like, okay, would probably be good to learn a little bit about strength training if I want to work with athletes and that sort of thing.

So got into it then and I’d been lifting for I guess like a year and a half or so up until that point. And I followed a lot of kind of like mainstream fitness YouTube channels and accounts. So I knew about like Jeff Nippard. I was watching a lot of Greg Doucet. So I was watching these channels, but I didn’t. And, like, I thought bodybuilding was really cool.

And I’ve always been somebody who’s like, I care about, like, muscles. Like, strength for me is kind of like a cool side quest. But it’s never been like, you know, powerlifting has never really appealed that much to me. I’ve always just liked the aesthetics and kind of the art and science and merging those two of bodybuilding. So I always intrigued me.

But at the same time, I knew what it took in terms of steroids in order to be competitive. At least that’s what I thought before I discovered natural bodybuilding. I didn’t even know that there was, like, a subsection of bodybuilding where you competed. Drug tested naturally. My first introduction, actually was watching a podcast with this guy called Doug Miller, who has earned the.

Earned the nickname Drug Miller because people think that he takes steroids because he’s arguably like, the best natural bodybuilder, male natural bodybuilder of all time. Just like a freaky physique. So I saw that and I was like, I’m a little bit skeptical. But then once I kind of started listening and watching more podcasts, I was watching I’m trying to think Stronger by Science, Revive Stronger, the 3D Muscle Journey podcast.

I started really, like, diving into it full force. And the more that I watched these things and I looked at actual natural body. Com bodybuilding competitions, it kind of opened my eyes to what you could accomplish naturally. And at first I was like, oh, this is not impressive compared to, you know, the. These, like, enhanced physiques that I was used to looking at.

But then over time, I came to appreciate how impressive it truly was. And then when I actually went and saw it in person, I was like, whoa, this is like, whole another level. It’s crazy. So the first time that I really thought about it was kind of in the spring of 2021. And I looked at my physique and where I was at, and I started fitness. My. Like, my fitness journey, I guess you could say.

I feel like that’s such a cliche, like, term right there, like, fitness journey. Like, the amount of time that people, like, say those words together, like, and the amount sometimes I’ve said it, it sounds, like, gross to my ears. But whatever, it is what it is. When I started that I was a little bit on the heavier side. Never really liked the way that I looked.

So my first introduction was doing a pretty aggressive cut and getting very lean, but I didn’t have much muscle mass. And then I was kind of just in this limbo of trying to maintain that for a while because it’s like, you know, you see your abs for the first time and you’re like, whoa, this is crazy. I don’t want to let go of this. And I think I kind of.

I started to also identify with, you know, the fit guy, the guy who had abs, and I was in college and of where it’s like, you know, people notice that sort of thing and you’re getting, you know, you’re getting people, you know, seeing it and commenting on it. So I think that probably played into it. But then I decided, I asked myself, I’m like, okay, what’s more important to me, you know, being a competitive bodybuilding athlete or holding on to this, like, kind of like, lean identity

that I had had for, you know, that I cultivated over the past year or so. And I’m like, you know, I think I really do want to pursue this natural bodybuilding thing. So I committed to going through intentional PH phases of building and then diet phases. And as I did this kind of sequentially over two and a half years, I got better and better at the skill of each of them, better at building.

Like, okay, if I hit plateaus, what are some different strategies that I can use to get around that? If I want to eat more, how can I do it? Kind of slow, make kind of slow gains and not overdo it. The first time I really committed to a bull, I way overdid it, gained way too much weight super fast, and I, I had the whole. I have some funny photos, I have the whole, like, moon phase going on, but it was great.

I put on a bunch of muscle, so I was happy, I didn’t care. Uh, and then, you know, I got better at kind of the skill of, of dieting as well, because, you know, build back up, strip off the body fat, you know, rinse and repeat. Uh, and so that was a really productive two and a half years from that spring of 2021 to the fall, or, yeah, fall slash winter of 2023, which is when I decided to start my.

My prep, which wasn’t anticipated. I actually had planned on waiting. At first, when I started thinking about bodybuilding, I was like, it’s going to be. I’m going to wait 10 years, 10 years of training, and then I’m going to compete. But then, like, as I went to more shows and I got more involved in that world, I started to get more of the desire like, oh, no, I want to experience what this is like.

And Then I found out that Worlds was going to be in Boston this year. So I was like, okay, that is the impetus for me to do it because I, you know, born and raised the Boston area. So I wanted to be able to do that show as kind of like a, you know, have friends and family come out and support. So that’s kind of what spurred my decision to start my prep earlier than anticipated.

And, you know, that building phase, it wasn’t without its ups and downs. Like, I had. I had a spontaneous pneumothorax, which means my lung collapsed at one point during that. And so I was out of the gym for a couple of months. Had to find ways to train around that. And you always get the typical injuries and setbacks and stuff that comes up. So it was by no means perfect, but I learned a lot and I put on a lot of muscle mass in that timeframe.

So I felt like I was at a good enough point that I could. I could do a prep and see, you know, see how I did. So that’s. That’s where I started. And I started my prep a little bit after you start. Would have started yours in, like, mid to late November, I think. It was like the week before Thanksgiving was when I started my prep for. For. For this year.

Alice:

Yeah. And I had already been dieting. Not for. I forgot to mention, I had already been dieting for a couple months just because we were going to do, like, a photo shoot as a team at Vegan proteins. And so my diet had started a little bit before that, but didn’t change the plan too much. It literally was just so spontaneous and, like, ready to go now for me, because, you know, there’s a lot.

There’s a lot of question and planning that goes on with, do you want to compete in, like, the early winter shows or do you want to wait until summer and fall? Because you have to be strategic because it’s so difficult to have a longer season. But I just. I just didn’t have any patience at that time and was just ready to go. So my first. The first one this year was February, early February, I think. So. Yeah.

I actually ended up getting lean very early in the. In the cutting process, and it was surprising, very uncomfortable. But I think it helped me. Looking back at the different. At the different prep seasons, I think I was able to come in with a really nice look, and I was really. I was really happy with how it turned out. And that’s when I got my pro cards. Not that exact show, but third show of this year.

Ben:

So when you decided after Mr. America that you were going to transition from, okay, we’re dieting to this is now prep, and I want to do some shows in the early or I guess late winter, early spring, what kind of changed for your plan or for your timeline? And did you immediately pick, like, okay, these are the shows that I’m going to do, or was it kind of a case of let’s just keep going at a certain rate and we’ll pick shows based on when you feel like you are ready to jump in there?

Alice:

We had originally planned to do a show, I think maybe two months later than that. Maybe, maybe it was in Richmond or. So, Yeah, I think it was a Richmond show. And because I ended up being ready and competition lean early, that’s how we landed on, oh, let’s, let’s do February. There’s one In Williamsburg, just 20 minutes away from me. Let’s go.

Ben:

And was that a case of your stage weight being higher than predicted or you got to that stage weight quicker than you thought you were going to get to, or some combination of the two of those?

Alice:

The second one just, I’m. My body, I’m. I’m more of a hard gainer a little bit. So the weight loss process happened quicker than anticipated. Although I did continue to lose body fat even though the numbers on the scale were staying the same. That’s a weird thing that sort of happens with my physique.

Um, so having that several. It was at least a month that I was like ready and ready to go. And so sticking at that same weight for a month, I was actually continuing to lose body fat. So it’s interesting. Very uncomfortable.

Ben:

Yeah, no, I’ve, I’ve heard of that. I’ve. I, you know, I think it is kind of one of those nice things where you get leaner earlier than you anticipate and you have some time to, um. Now were from that point, were you eating more food or was the food staying relatively the same and you were kind of just recomping at that same weight?

Alice:

Food was staying the same, um, and calories are relatively high. Um, but I’m a tall person, so I, I have that.

Ben:

That.

Alice:

That’s one benefit of being super, super Amazon tall.

Ben:

So, yeah, I feel like I’ve seen that two ways where one is, okay, you know, you’re dieting on this amount of calories, you get to a certain weight, the scale kind of just seems to stick. But because you’re so lean at that point, every, you know, little bit of body fat makes a Big visual difference. Even if the scale isn’t changing that much, and we know, you know, stress hormones and other things that can lead to water retention during that timeframe.

It’s, like, easy to imagine how that body fat loss in terms of actual weight of tissue could be replaced by, you know, water weight or just not picked up because of the variability in scale weight data. Especially when you’re. When you’re lean, you know, the scale can be all over the place, I find, depending on if you’re stressed, you do a bunch of steps.

More water, more sodium, whatever it is. And another way that I’ve seen this is when people get to that, like, really lean point and they start increasing their food a little bit. I think you get a little bit more fullness and a little bit more glycogen. And so you’re. You’re replenishing some of this, but you’re still kind of in a deficit, just less of a deficit.

And so you’re starting to look leaner. You look leaner also, because when your muscles are more full, it kind of pushes out against the skin, and you can display that leanness. I think I heard somebody say in a podcast, it’s like, you get flat to get lean. You fill out to look lean because it’s. You know, when you’re super flat, you don’t always look as lean, but then, like, you get a little bit of carbs in you.

It’s like, whoa, okay, there’s that leanness that we were looking for. Like, sometimes lines appear that you didn’t even know that you had because you were so flat that you weren’t getting that, you know, intramuscular fullness pushing out against the skin. So, um, it’s. Yeah, that’s very interesting that you found that that was a pattern for yourself, for sure.

Alice:

And you mentioned water and sodium and the prep earlier in this year. At the beginning of this year, we. I was doing flexible dieting the entire time. I didn’t have a meal plan. Um, and because of that, my sodium was a lot higher than it was the second time around this year. Um, and I think it was to my benefit. And I think in the future, that’s sort of one lesson learned.

The sodium helping me stay hydrated, because that’s been an ongoing, like, challenge for me, having to drink even more to stay hydrated when I’m that lean, because your body’s burning all that fat, and so it’s just on overdrive. So that’s one thing I definitely want to try next time around.

Ben:

I can speak to that. Like just the constant drink pee, drink pee, drink pee. It’s like you’re always thirsty but you don’t retain the, you know, retain the water. And I found that as well that like the more sodium I had, the less I was having to, to drink and you know, not have to get up seven times in the row of the night to go pee. That, I mean that’s a little bit extreme.

That probably only, you know, I think my record was like probably five or six times. But towards when I was like really digging and like really in points in prep, that was when it was at its highest. Was that amount of getting up in the middle of the night a little bit tangential? I wanted to touch on the fact that you were in prep through the holidays because I think that’s an interesting kind of, kind of point there because the holiday season for a lot of folks is about food and food

experience and sharing that with family. So you mentioned that you were doing flexible dieting. How did that kind of, how did you know? Navigating the holidays. How did you do that?

Alice:

I’m. I have a lot of practice with flexible dieting and I am like a master at macro Tetris and even because the rest of my family is not vegan, except for my brother who he sometimes, most of the time he comes out this year he’s not, unfortunately. But I’m used to making my own food for Thanksgiving and for Christmas. So I get to make my own diet foods.

Some things I don’t make as diet because I know that my family likes them like they really like the vegan stuffing with the field roast sausage in it. And then my family will also make little adaptations to things so that they can make it vegan, make something else vegan, like a sweet potato casserole, for example. So it’s pretty easy for me when I make my own seitan, when I’m making my own macro friendly protein Mac and cheese, because they always have Mac and cheese.

So I have to have my version and things like that. Yeah. So it, it’s sort of natural for me because I’ve just been at it so long. And my health also takes, plays a role in that as well because I have ulcerative colitis. And one of the biggest challenges has always been I’ve learned that I can’t have too much fat in one sitting or it will trigger symptoms for me.

So I can’t really have super, super celebratory food regularly anyways. So it’s just part of my lifestyle. But when you, when you’re in total control of your food, I’d say, like, it really, really helps your environment.

Ben:

For sure. I don’t have too much to follow up on, but when it comes to flexible dieting, there’s two other things that I, I have heard you talk about that you did for your prep that I think are things that people could take away and maybe apply to their own situation. One of them that you mentioned is you would intentionally set aside some calories each day just for like, foods that you enjoy just for the pleasure of eating them, which I think is really important because prep is so long

and if you try to just like white knuckle it the entire time and like you hate everything that you’re eating, you’re never going to make it through. And the second one that you did was like finding a way to make eating out work with prep. And that came with finding certain restaurants and certain foods. So do you want to touch on both of those and how you approached those during your prep?

Alice:

Yeah. Yeah. So I am a big fan of meal prep, but I also mix it up with just making very, very quick and easy meals. And I pretty much have part of my day on repeat. As far as my breakfast and lunch slash pre workout meal is concerned. That’s when I get my, my fruit, my two servings of vegetables. Of course, I’m getting good protein amounts both times.

And once I’m done with those two meals, I making sure that I’m getting protein throughout the day. But basically I’m hoarding up carbs and fat, setting them aside so that I’m able to have a lot to play with when I go out and a lot to play with on holidays as well. But I have such a. Everything’s so set in stone when I’m at home typically that I almost always have room for my cereal at night.

That’s my food that makes me feel like I’m not dieting on a day in and day out basis. I look forward to it. You know, I think everybody struggles with the evening times, right. As far as sticking to any kind of calorie deficit or any kind of meal plan at all, that’s the time when we’re the most like, you want to get into the kitchen, you want to graze, you want a snack.

But if I know I have my cereal to look forward to, then I’m, I usually think to myself, you know what? I’d much rather have my cereal than have, you know, fill in the blank food most of the time. So that Helps me a lot. It doesn’t have to be cereal. You know, there have been other times where before I started on my cereal kick, which has been a long time doing.

Trying to fit in, like those little Trader Joe’s oat milk ice cream sandwiches, those little things. So that was something I did before. But as far as eating out. Yeah. Trying to eat out in a place where it’s very rural and there’s not a lot of other vegans can be challenging. So we utilize a lot of, like going to Mexican restaurants and going to, you know, Chinese restaurants and Thai restaurants.

And a lot of these places will have tofu. So storing up fat for the ability to have a whole lot of tofu, because they’re usually very generous. In my experience, you get like a whole block of tofu a lot of times. So doing stir fry is when I go to get Chinese food, something similar. When you get Thai food, they always have the tofu vegetable. Maybe it’s like a ginger sauce that it comes in with like a little ball of rice.

Mexican always doing some kind of tacos or bowls. And if you can find a bowl anywhere in any restaurant that you can make vegan. And most of the time it’s easy to do that. They don’t mix everything together for you. So even if not everything in there you want. Exactly. Or you want that much of. Maybe they gave you a ton of rice. You can set a pick around it and you can make it work.

But I hope I save up so many calories that it just ends up working. Anyways, what else? If I. If we do have a couple of vegan places across the water in Virginia beach where my boyfriend lives, and one of them is like a sandwich place, and it’s basically like a vegan subway. But she has expanded her menu again and again and again. It’s honest pastures.

And Deja does an amazing job. And she cooks very, like, low oil. It’s very easy to eat out there. I think a lot of. A lot of vegan restaurants are going to try and make their food a little bit healthier, even if it’s still like, all right, here’s a vegan burger, here’s a vegan sub. So I was able to rely on her a lot. If I go out to any place like that, like, look for seitan. You can find seitan. It’s all protein. It’s easiest to track that and, you know, track the bread.

Track whatever kind of fat you have, whether that’s vegan cheese, or if you can ask for your mayo. On the side and you can visually see how much you’re eating instead of having a sandwich as drowning in mayo. So, yeah, I have a lot of practice with that. I love. I love making it work, and I’m pretty successful at it. I know I have a pretty good metabolism, but also, like, I just. It’s a. It’s a combination of both.

Ben:

This is very insightful. I think that’ll be helpful to anyone who is trying to figure out how can they still do these social events, even when they have to or want to, I should say, be more dialed in and more. Pay more attention to detail when it comes to nutrition. Maybe they’re probably in a deficit in a dieting phase. I think that’s one of the nice parts about building phases, that you have more of that flexibility to do that sort of thing.

You don’t have to be as meticulous with planning out, okay, I need to save up these carbs and fats for later in the day. And. But, you know, I still think that there are ways like you, like, you found a way to make it work to do that. And I think that is important is not just shutting out everything socially when you do decide to do a competition prep, because prep itself, it can already be a pretty isolating thing.

Not really many people will ever understand kind of what you go through psychologically, physically. So it is helpful to still have ways to connect with people. And I think food is just such a way that we do that it’s sometimes difficult to find social activities that don’t involve food. But I think that there are other ways that you can do that. You know, going on a coffee date, going for a walk, playing board games.

There’s, you know, there are other ways that you can do it. But I think that in finding a way to still, you know, eat out, because you’re going to have events that come up during your prep, whether it’s like a birthday or family or friend events, there’s going to be stuff that comes up. So it’s better to have a plan than to just say, I’m locking it down for the next six months and not doing anything.

Alice:

And just for other listeners as well, I do want to put out the caveat. Like, the most I can get away with doing this is once a week, and it’s not always once a week. You still have to have limitations with this. Still have to have, you know, be cautious of sauces and sides and stuff, be willing to ask for low oil, be willing to ask for the sauce on the side. Hopefully you’re already used to that a little bit because we’re vegan and we gotta ask, hey, is this fish sauce? But you know, as long as

you’re able to, you know, advocate for yourself in that way, you’re just gonna get better and better at it. It’s gonna get easier and easier. And yeah, it definitely is something that keeps your sanity. For if you can make it feel like you are not dieting just for like an hour of the week, you know, and have your social events be out at a restaurant where you don’t have to make your own food, you get that one little break. It’s so refreshing and it keeps you more compliant.

Ben:

No, definitely. I think you don’t want to completely do away with like the hedonic aspects of food, like eating for enjoyment. That’s important too, and not just getting rid of that. Because I think a lot of people are just like, I’ll do whatever it takes. I’ll eat dirt if I have to in order to get to my goal. I’m like, well, maybe some people can do that, but most people are, are going to have to, you know, have some amount of pleasure or enjoyment in the food that they’re eating.

One last thing that I did want to ask you was, did you have some sort of staggered dietary structure where you had some mix of high days and low days and did you find that you would use, you know, those social occasions or try to structure those around those higher calorie days?

Alice:

Absolutely. Refeed days are on the weekend, which is the form of carb cycling, basically. Although it’s a little bit extra carbs and a little bit extra fat, if we’re being completely honest. But absolutely make it work when you have those extra calories to play with, whether you have a reefy day, two review days, or if you have a free meal, something like that.

Definitely saving it for those times, being strategic about it. And really you do want to be consistent about like what days of the week you do it in general because it’s, it’s going to blur your results on the scale if your days start getting switched up too much because then say you had a lot of salt in that meal and you’re in the middle of the week, you know, and you had to move your refeed day.

Now you’ve had, now you’ve extended your deficit days time, the scale is going to do weird things and it’s going to really like throw you for a loop. And probably there’s a good chance you won’t see like the progress that you’re expecting to see that week. So there is. There is a lot of strategy about it, and there’s a lot of holding yourself accountable as well.

Ben:

I think having back to back refeed days is something that is really helpful. It’s like being out of that deficit for that short period of time in the week. I think there’s something very restorative and healing about that, both from a, you know, like a. Your body and getting a little bit of extra oomph going into that training week, you know, when you start the next week.

But I think it resets to an extent some of that diet fatigue, some of those psychological symptoms. And it’s like when you know that you have those two days to look forward to or, you know, it’s. It doesn’t become this like, all right, I’m grinding for the next four months of just like, you know, deficit days. Every single day. It’s like, okay, I have these five low days.

I’m gonna get through them, and then I’m gonna do it. And it’s like the start of the week is easier because you’re coming off of those, off those days who are a little higher calories, so you more energy, you’re ready to go. And then, yeah, maybe towards the middle or the end of the week, it starts to get tougher. But then you’re like, oh, only two more days until I have this kind of break or this reprieve.

So I think even if they’re, you know, the research is a little mixed on this, but I think there’s a lot of benefits of breaking it up like that just from, like a lifestyle perspective and from, you know, not driving yourself CR.

Alice:

Crazy, basically, it’s so hormonally beneficial. I talk to clients about this all the time. It basically just, you know, you’ve got such. Such high cortisol, such high stress hormone from being in this deficit for such a long period of time and being able to have those extra carbs, a little bit of extra fat on the weekend, it’s just going to lower the cortisol and increase your pot, your more positive hormones, and your body is going to release so much stress.

And even though the scale will go up a little bit, you know, as you’re eating more calories, your body will be able to release more of the weight when you go back into your deficit. And I think that’s something that people fear a lot, especially when they’re not used to carb cycling. But it really helps you to be able to eat More calories for a longer amount of time before you just keep cutting down and cutting down and cutting down.

And I forgot to mention this competition season in the fall, I was actually doing three refeed days and four deficit days. All of the calories kind of had to be, like, a lot lower. But I found that that even helped my stress levels even more, and that was a new experience for me.

Ben:

So you mentioned that your first competition of this year was in February. So how are you feeling going into that first show? What was the experience like in that first show or in those first couple shows? Because I know we’ve kind of alluded to the fact that you split up your season and you had kind of a spring season and a fall season. So I guess starting with the spring season, what was the experience like there?

Alice:

I felt so overly prepared. Of course, I was super nervous. Of course I had a million questions. Of course I got backstage. I had no idea what was going on as far as, like, I was completely incapable of paying attention to the expediter. I was just like, I hope they call my number. And I’m just, like, alert enough to be able to catch it. But I felt so overly prepared.

And when I arrived, when I arrived, and you know, when you’re competing in amateur, when it’s a smaller show in a more rural area, like, I showed up, and I was by far the leanest person that I could see backstage, and I was like, oh, this is going to go really, really well. So I felt really good the whole time, and I just loved it. I loved every minute that of the competition itself.

Now, getting ready is probably the worst part of the entire thing, in my opinion, as a female. Having to do your hair, having to do your makeup up, going to get the tan, which eventually I started doing my own tan. But even then, oh, it’s all terrible. But it’s all worth it when you get backstage and when you get on stage. I definitely. That’s my favorite part for sure.

Ben:

The being on stage part and kind of presenting your, you know, what you’ve worked so hard to achieve.

Alice:

Yeah. For most of the time, for the most part, I get on stage and I’m just completely, like, I’m able to just zero in on the judges and trying to, like, have that make that connection with the judges, and it’s a good thing. I wouldn’t say that it’s 100 of the time, but when I’m able to, like, reach that zone, like, that’s when I do the best.

That’s the majority of the time, and I’m just having fun. It’s like the one time I’m a diva because I’m so opposite of that outside. I’m someone who doesn’t really wear makeup. I’m someone who, you know, I’m just more like of a jock now. That’s my lifestyle.

Ben:

So it sounded like you weren’t at least outwardly too nervous or uncomfortable being up there. Was that something that you had to cultivate and practice ahead of time? What did the posing preparation look like for you? Because I think bikini is one of those categories where the presentation is super important. You know, how you walk on stage, even down to the details of like your suit color and how that complements the rest of your look and the jewelry that you choose to wear.

And there’s just a lot more aspects to the performance, the actual being up on stage, I think, compared to some other categories. So what was that whole print planning process? You know, the posing, the picking out all of the different accessories that go along with that. What was that like for you?

Alice:

You? Yeah. The second worst part of all of this process is posing. I’m not natural at it. I had a posing coach, we worked together for three or four months, I’d say, and she was really good, but I wish she had pushed me a little bit harder. Right. She was. I think she just didn’t want to be like, come across as mean or like too strict or anything. And she wanted to be friends, which I can appreciate, and she made me feel comfortable.

But I do wish she had been a little, little harder on me. But by the time I got on stage, it’s like, you practice so much. You, you, if you don’t go up there feeling over prepared, then you’re in trouble. Even my first time, like, you know, stepping on stage, you know, you get, you get. If you don’t have that practice with that actual time walking, presenting in front of the judges, you can have times where you get nervous and it’s hard to hear the judges and you may be like deer in

headlights for a moment and that happens. But that’s why you just want to be completely, completely over prepared walking up there. And as far as choosing your suit color, as far as choosing your jewelry, as long as you have something that looks like everyone else up on stage, including your hair, you’re going to be fine. You don’t want to try and do anything too different, especially in bikini, because it actually, in my opinion, ends up hurting you more than helping you.

So choose your color, choose your favorite color. Because the judges don’t care, you know, have at least a bracelet. Doesn’t have to be both hands. Have earrings that are big enough that you can see from 50ft away. Get your hair done, because they will comment if you don’t do your hair. And, yeah, other than that, just prepare, prepare, prepare.

Ben:

Great advice. I don’t think what you said, like, when you’re, like, you can’t practice, you’re posing too much. It’s true. Because the more second nature it becomes, not only do you have more endurance and stamina, if they’re really working you with the poses up there, because, you know, you can get to the point where they put you through so many rounds, you’re shaking, you’re quaking a little bit.

You can tell who’s practiced they’re posing and who hasn’t. So it’s not even just the execution. It’s also how long can you hold those poses? Can you maintain that composure when you’re tired and you don’t. You know, you don’t really have a ton of energy. Depends kind of how your peak week has gone. So I just wanted to echo that. Did you have anything else you wanted to want to say on that?

Alice:

No, but I want to hear about your version from the men’s bodybuilding side.

Ben:

Yeah. Okay. So I suppose I’ll start back when I decided that I wanted to prep, which started prep, you know, right before Thanksgiving. So when it comes to holiday meals, eating out, I took kind of a similar approach. If I knew that I was going to be doing those things ahead of time, I would just maybe eat it a little bit more conservatively throughout the day.

Most of those things tended to be in the evening, so maybe I just have a little bit less. You know, if I. I think most days I was eating four meals, and so for my first three meals, I would just eat a little bit less and then just try to be, you know, engage in some of those mindful eating practices for that. For that meal out trying to pick something that had some protein and, you know, usually, like, vegetables, and keep it to that understanding that, yeah, there’s probably gonna be some,

like, added fats in there and some stuff you didn’t account for. But I always like to think about it. When you think about the number of meals per week that you’re eating, you know, if you’re eating. If 27 out of 28 meals you prepare yourself, that one meal is just gonna be such a small fraction that it’s. It’s gonna be okay. Um, and working Those into some higher calorie days I think is a good strategy as well.

So I was very much of the like, I just want to keep it as simple as possible. I’m following a meal plan and I’m just sticking through it through prep. And that’s kind am like year round honestly, just because I’m very basic when it comes to food. I don’t, I don’t love like I used to be really into like the recipe creation and playing around with stuff.

I think it was kind of when I first went vegan and started getting into fitness and everything. I was super like, you know, wizard in the kitchen, like making all these fancy different recipes. And then over time I just got to the point where like I don’t care anymore. I’m just kidding.

Alice:

Now you’re ultra, ultra bro meals.

Ben:

Yes, exactly. But like not, you know, not the conventional necessarily so. So at this time I was working the front desk job at a gym and my job was to open the gym at 4:15 in the mornings. And I would work the morning shifts Monday through Friday from 4:15 to 1:00 most days. I would get off early on Fridays at 10am and so that involved its own set of challenges.

There were, was a fridge at the gym, a large fridge that I could store stuff in and we had a microwave. So there were, there were ways that I could have prepared food and you know, stored it. But I wanted to really just like not be thinking because I, I knew from the past that I just don’t want to be thinking about food all the time. And sometimes when you give yourself too much flexibility and you know, I personally didn’t really care, I’m okay just like keeping things pretty simple and

if I really want to, I’ll just do something else. So what I did was I tried to figure out, okay, what is going to be the easiest thing that’s going to require the least amount of prep time Because I would get off at 1:00, I would train afterwards. So I would train and then if I had any like cardio or something to do, I would do that as well. So usually I’d be done around 3:00, I would go home.

Thankfully I lived pretty close to the gym, so it was like a five minute drive. I would go home, I would eat something, I would shower, then I would do a good amount of steps because most of the day I was just kind of sitting at the front desk, maybe walking a little bit around the gym. And as I got later in prep I started to Implement a system where I would get up and do a lap around the gym every 15 minutes, minutes to get stuff.

And so I had a whole system down but earlier on and then I was still doing those steps after work on top of that. So then I would, you know, go out and do steps. I would come back from that, eat a meal, prep my meals for the next day, and then go to sleep. So it was very much just like living very robotically. I didn’t have during the week, I did not have much, much social time after work pretty much any day because it was always just like, yeah, I have these lists of non negotiables I have to do

and I don’t have any extra time really. Like I had to go to bed at. Oh God, I was going to bed at like 7, 7:30 some nights because I had to get up so early and I need, you know, I need my nine hours of sleep or whatever. So that was basically, you know, it was basically Groundhog Day for a lot, you know, many, many months. On the weekends, I’d say towards the beginning I was more social and more willing to engage in those things.

But as I was getting leaner, it gets harder. Your body really needs that rhythm and needs that routine. And I found, okay, if I try to stay up later on a week, you know, a weekend night, I’m still gonna wake up at the same time. And then I’m just getting not as much sleep. It’s like, oh, you know, you’re getting up at 4:15 because you get up at 4:15 every single day.

So even if I went to bed at like of, yeah, I couldn’t sleep in. So it was like, okay. I just have to accept that if I want to make plans with people, it’s got to be like earlier in the day when I have a little bit more energy and I’m already a little bit on, you know, that. Not even a little bit, a lot of it on the introverted side of the spectrum. So it already takes some effort for me to get out there and, and do stuff with people, even, you know, really good friends.

So a combination of factors just made it so it was. Things were very regimented the entire time. So I basically just followed a meal plan where it’s going to sound funny to people, but it worked out decently well where I would just have, you know, the premier protein cereal. I would have two servings.

I would have two servings of that with one cup of almond milk and some fruit for all of my meals. Just, oh my goodness, that was literally every single one of my meals. And then I actually think I had some, I had some like cucumber and tomato and yeah, I had some cucumber and tomato for vegetables.

Alice:

Very non starchy approach.

Ben:

Oh yeah, it was, it was like I would have. Because the, I mean the protein syrup has a good amount of carbs in it. So that would eat up a decent amount. It was just because it was so easy to prep, I could just bring it like already measured out in little like Tupperwares and just eat it for my meals. And I could keep, you know, I would just bring, I’d bring a little carton of almond milk with me work, just keep it in the fridge there. So.

Alice:

And I think it’s worth mentioning like I, I would utilize things that were mostly protein. Like I love the premier protein cereal but I would have been a little more careful with that because I spent so many days hoarding my carbs that I’m either using seitan or in this recent, this last prep I was using the, the soy free fava bean tofu because it’s 100% protein. So that’s interesting that you took that approach.

Ben:

Yeah. And I probably would have used more of that stuff, more protein powder, more of that stuff. But it was just like even that little prep time of like preparing that, cutting it up, it was like I was trying to save time wherever I could. And I liked, and I liked the cereal too. So I’m like I can eat cereal four times a day, no problem. I mean who doesn’t like cereal? Yeah, it’s maybe not like the tastiest cereal but it’s pretty good for protein cereal.

Alice:

So you let it get soggy. It’s good.

Ben:

Yeah, yeah. No, it does not get soggy. It is.

Alice:

Oh, I think it does.

Ben:

It’s a cardboard. So the first, yeah, I would have like apples with my first meal, peaches with my second meal, which is my pre workout meal. What would I have after that? Oranges and kiwis. Those were like the main fruits that I was, you can tell like the fact that I still remember this. And that was pretty much what I was having every day. And then if I, I took kind of refeeds, little bit more auto regulated because at the start of my prep I was, I was like 190 pounds and I was eating like 4,

500 calories a day and I was pretty like, oh, done with food. So I immediately pretty much slashed that in half. And so I dropped my weight very quickly. So I didn’t make any changes to steps. I didn’t make any changes to anything. And I. So I dropped that first 20 pounds really easily. Just kind of following that, following that approach. And then as I started to get leaner, I took more refeed days and would like auto regulate that based on how I was feeling.

And so for my refeeds I would just either have like some more fruit, I would have like cream of rice or some form of rice usually. I would maybe have a little dark chocolate if I wanted to have my fats a little bit higher. But I wasn’t super. I didn’t start, start having like weekend refeed days until I was really closer to my competition. Like six weeks, five weeks, like sub, six weeks out.

Then I was pretty much having them every single weekend and like pre planning them in because you know, you need that when you’re, when you’re getting really, really lean. So I had initially planned on just doing fall shows because I had mentioned, you know, doing the World in Boston and there were a bunch of shows kind of centered around that, including Mr.

America. I think they’re like six weeks apart, which is tough, but doable. Like it’s a little bit of a long season. You know, you definitely can do it if you time it right. Like, you know, if I’m just getting kind of to that peak level of leanness around Mr. America and then you can kind of eat up into those later shows and maintain condition. It’s not the easiest thing to do, but it’s definitely doable.

So that was initially my plan, but because the prep had been going so well in, in kind of the, the winter slash early spring and I was like leaner than I expected at the time that I expected. I was initially planning on basically having like a two or three month maintenance phase where I was kind of at that like 10 or 15% above stage weight where I’ll usually try to have most competitors start.

If I am going to coach somebody through a prep. I was self coached for the, for this time period, which going forward I probably won’t do that again. It’s, it’s difficult, it’s difficult. Um, so I got to the point where I was like, okay, there are some shows kind of late spring, early summer. And I was like, why not just jump in some, some shows earlier?

And yeah, I won’t be like 100%. I’ll be like, I’ll, I’ll plan on being like 85, 90% and then I’ll take like that kind of one or two month diet break, maintenance Phase, maybe eat up a little bit and then go back down into a deficit and really kind of like, dig for the fall show. Um, but what ended up happening was my competitive side got the best of me.

And when I started prepping, like, when I decided that I was committing, I committed at, like, 10 weeks out to this first show. Um, then I was probably. I think I was like. I want to say I was, like, mid-160s maybe. And I planned on stepping on stage at, like, 145, 150 for, like, @ my leanest. So I was expecting for these shows to be, like. Like, probably mid-150s or something like that, maybe a little bit lower.

So about a pound a week if you kind of average it out. It didn’t seem that unreasonable at the time. But what happened was, I think I was just. This being my first season, I was a little bit insecure about not wanting to look out of place on stage and wanting to be lean enough and knowing myself. I’m always somebody who tends to push too hard as opposed to not hard enough.

And, like, the first day I ever went into the gym, I was like. I remember I was benching, and I, like, failed on the incline bench. And then I had to roll it off. Like, I’ve always, like, been. Been the guy who, like, go to failure on everything, like, to. To the point, like, too much when I was starting out, and I’ve had to dial that back. So it got to the point where, yeah, I was just kind of insecure about being lean enough on stage and being competitive enough.

So I. I pushed definitely way too hard in those 10 weeks. And, like, looking back at photos, I can see, yeah, I did get leaner, but I definitely lost a decent amount of muscle mass in that process, and I don’t think it resulted in a better presentation on stage. And that’s usually what happens when you push things too hard, especially when you’re getting leaner.

If you try to speed things up, that’s like, the opposite of what you want to do. You want to slow things down as you get leaner. Um, so I got to the point where. Where my calories didn’t actually get, you know, lower that much. They kind of stayed at the same point that they were at earlier in the. Earlier in the prep. Like, I pretty much cut my calories in between 2000 and 2300 for most of my prep, but my steps were just, like, slowly creeping up and creeping up and

creeping up. And I think part of me was. I think there was a little bit of an immaturity on my part of, like not wanting to let go of some of the food that I had. And like, okay, I can just.

Alice:

That’s where our coach would have help.

Ben:

Exactly. I, like, I’ll. I’ll just like do more expenditure and that’ll be fine because it’s just steps and steps are low impact. But it got to the point where I was, I think in that last month of prep, I was averaging. So I had some days that were like 30, 35,000 steps. Yeah, I know, right?

Alice:

And no.

Ben:

And wearing. And wearing a 20 pound weighted vest for all of those steps.

Alice:

Oh, my goodness. One day I want to pick your brain about that. That’s interesting thing. I refused to do formal cardio, and the whole time I did 10k steps. I’m not saying that I never went over, but I probably never went over 15k steps. But no formal cardio beyond that.

Ben:

And that’s the way that things should be done. So in addition to that, I was doing like, I was also doing cardio probably two or three times a week for like an hour or so. So it was just a lot. And. And I do feel like I definitely, like, lost muscle mass in my lower body, my upper body as well. To be honest. I think just the rate of loss was too fast. The curious thing was that I did actually maintain most of my strength throughout the prep leading up to that.

So I think, you know, in the past, I kind of, or I just kind of had this perception that, oh, well, as long as I’m maintaining my strength, I’m not going to be losing really any muscle mass. And I think there’s. I think there’s truth to that. But I think also. So, you know, if your rate of loss is so fast, even if your strength is, you know, you know, maintaining relatively, I still think it’s probably you’re putting yourself at risk of losing some, you know, some fullness and some muscle

mass. So that was a lesson that I learned. And my plan was to kind of give myself two or three weeks of eating up before the first show that I was doing, which I did. So I, you know, I dieted. Then I had two weeks before my first show. And then I think I kind of realized that I pushed things a little bit too hard at like one or two weeks out. But I almost got to this point where I.

It was weird. It was like I was almost like sick of bodybuilding. Like, I was just so mentally burnt out from everything that I just want. Like, I was just all I could think about was, like, getting back to my off season, like, making improvements again. Like, I didn’t even. I was like, I don’t even know if I. I enjoy prep. Like, I’m just doing this because, you know, this is my form of activism, and I probably wouldn’t be competing if it weren’t.

You know, I. You know, it’s just not enjoyable anymore. And I think, yeah, it was the way that I went about the prep, but so I tried to kind of, like, correct things by increasing my food and trying to, you know, regain some performance in the gym and regain kind of some of that fullness that I lost. But basically this. What ended up happening was that I just, like, ended up with this.

This, like, smaller, watery look. It did not look good on stage. And I can hear Danny and Jocko in my head right now being like, you’re being too hard on yourself. Like, you look great. And so, you know, I can still objectively say that I did, like, in my first competition. I went into the open class right away. I didn’t want to do novice. I didn’t want to do first timers because I’m like, no, I want to be competitive with, like, the best of the best.

I want to step up there. So I got second out of seven at the first show that I did. So I was one spot off from that. That pro card. The guy who beat me, beat me. Like, I thought he beat me pretty handily. Like, he definitely should have won.

Alice:

I would have been like, no, you gotta enroll in more than just open. No, no, no, no, no. You have to, because you want to come home with so much more, too. It’s great that you for least second, but, like, you had come home with, like, an armful of stuff because you looked amazing.

Ben:

Yeah, I got off on stage. I was happy, definitely, like, with. And the. The head judge came up to me afterwards, and he was like, you had really good conditioning. You basically just need to, like, you know, get a little bit bigger, put on some more size. So that was nice to have him come up to me because I didn’t, like, seek out that feedback, but he wanted to kind of come up and give that to me and say some encouraging words.

So that was really nice. And Danny and Giacomo were at my first show. My family was at my first show. My friend Ryan, you. No, it wasn’t Sully. Although I did meet Sully at the. He did my polygraph for that show.

Alice:

Okay, awesome.

Ben:

Yes, he did that. He did my polygraph, and he actually asked because I was wearing the Vegan, strong stuff. He asked about it, and then that’s what led to him inviting Danny Giacomo and I onto his podcast. So that was cool. And I saw him at some other shows as well, because I was the runner up for a pro card at that show. I got free entry into a later show that he was running, so that was cool.

Cool. So after that show, I was like, I wasn’t necessary. I wasn’t disappointed with the show experience. I actually loved. I was surprised with how much I enjoyed competing because I, like, the whole time leading up, I’m like, screw this. I’m ready to be done with this whole bodybuilding thing. I just want to take a break. But I actually really enjoyed, like, being up there on the stage.

For some odd reason, I actually enjoyed, like, the whole, like, tanning process. Not, like, the spraying you with cold, wet paint part, but just like, the kind of, like, the fact that, okay, this is so weird, but, like, we’re all doing it because we all love this thing. And you can only laugh at the, like, absurdity of it. Like, you got a bunch of guys standing around in a circle, like, with cocks and socks and.

All right, Christina, if you need to bleep that, you can bleep that. But, yeah, which is like, these socks and just, like, standing half naked and like, oh, yeah, this is totally normal. This is just, like, a thing that people do. Yeah.

Alice:

At least we all had tents. I had. I mean, they were tiny tents. They’re like this big and, like, this tall.

Ben:

But, yeah, they were just facing each other most of the time. Unless, of course, like, it was a joint thing. If there were men and women there, then it was segregated, and, you know, they were being careful with that. But so I didn’t mind the show day experience, and Ryan was there to film it and capture it, so I was thankful for all that. But then when I got kind of, like, the photos back and, like, kind of critically evaluated my physique and where it was, like, however many weeks ago

ago, that was the point where mentally, it started to really wear on me. And I kind of, like, I. It took me a little while to come to grips or to understand that, like, what had kind of transpired and what I was seeing. And it was hard for me to accept that because I felt like I had put in so many. Like, you know, I spent years of building, working up to this, and I really wanted my first time on stage in my first season to go well.

Like, I’d be lying if I. If I said that I didn’t think about wanting to, you know, compete for a pro card and have that. And I had a lot of. Of people telling me, like, oh, you’re going to be competitive, that sort of thing. So I think, although, obviously, no one’s ever going to care more than yourself about how you do. I think there was kind of a pressure that I was putting on myself and also kind of felt this external pressure that wasn’t really there, but I was kind of putting that on

myself. And so that was really hard. And I kind of came to the conclusion that, okay, you know, I can’t. I can’t dig any further with where I’m at. Like, I’m tapped out, like, both mentally and physically. So it was kind of this case of, like, all right, if I still want to compete in the fall shows, I have to do some sort of, like, reverse slash recovery diet, even though I’m still in my spring season.

So it was this weird thing where I still had committed and signed up to doing another two or three shows that were within a couple weeks of this one. And I wanted to do it to get the stage experience, to get practice with posing. I had some friends who were doing the show, so there were reasons for me to continue on doing it.

Alice:

It.

Ben:

But throughout that time, I was actively, like, I could see I was getting less lean. I was putting on body fat, and I still, you know, that was on top of having lost some muscle mass. So that was really tough to have to get up on stage knowing that I wasn’t confident, I wasn’t feeling my best. I knew that I, you know, could be better. And that was really hard.

So that wrapped up, and it was kind of. I think it was like June about that that wrapped up. So I was competing from, you know, May and June. I was competing, and then I took a break. So I had, like, that six or seven. I think it was six weeks of eating up, of increasing my food and calories. And I went from my prep low was like 148 or something like that up to 158.

So one thing I did do well was actually estimating my stage weight. I was pretty spot on with that, although maybe it would have been a couple pounds higher if I had done things a little bit better with the diet. So I gained about 10 pounds in those six weeks. And I got to the point where mentally I was feeling, like, pretty ready to go back into things.

I didn’t feel super tapped out. I didn’t have any, like, really any issues with. With food or. Yeah, like, during that, that whole time for that first prep, I didn’t really have any issues. Yeah, any issues with food other than. And this was silly as well, that I, that I decided to do this. This right after. I was like, I had my last day of dieting planned, and it was also my last day of working at this gym before I started working at vegan protein.

So I was just like feeling euphoric, basically. And I was like, the prep, like, all the digging is done, Everything’s paid off. I’m like, leaving this job. Everything’s amazing. And I decided, I’m like, you know what? I’m gonna have a refeed today and tomorrow. And the refeed turned into, like, what should have been. Usually I was refeeding around 3000 calories, 2800, something like that.

It was like 4000, 4500 on both days. And I was like, okay, well, you know, like, could be worse. I, you know, I need to fill out. I’m flat anyways. You know these things you tell yourself because you’re like, you know, you can justify it. And then I was pretty spot on, actually, with the kind of like my reverse or my, my recovery, I guess, in those shows.

And then I didn’t have any issues after that, gaining up to that, like, that, those high 150s. And then I felt like, okay, it was start of July, end of June, started July. And that was the time where I started to actually, no, before that. So I was increasing food from like, basically May and half of June. And then the middle of June is when I started dieting again for the fall shows, knowing that Mr. America was kind of my main target show. And I had a warm up show that was like early

September, so. So that was my spring season. I think we can transition back to you and talking about, okay, you had your spring season. And then we didn’t even talk about, like, placings or anything like that. So if you wanted to talk about, like, how placings went for you in the spring and then talk about then transitioning to the fall, I think we can circle back around to what that looked like for myself.

Alice:

Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, to summarize, I was placing like, high and like, basically like one or two away from getting my pro card front. And that’s. And that’s sort of what led me to, like, I would get off stage and I’d be like, go again. It’s time to go again. Literally, we were driving home and I’m like, booking my next, my next show, like the next week or Two weeks later.

And so it was my. I think it was my third show that I won pro card in Open and Masters. And that felt amazing. And still, still I was like, I want to get on stage again. So I was like, I want to compete as a pro. So I went ahead and did that and I. We went all the way to Beaufort, Georgia for that. It was an amazing experience. One of Jackie shows. And let’s see, I ended up placing third in my class and I felt like I should have done better, but honestly, I didn’t look like any of the other women up

there. So I was really, really encouraged. But I was also like, all right, my body is done. It’s time to go back into a build. And not too long. Actually, right before. Sorry, I forgot. It was actually just right before I went to Georgia that I got asked to be on the vegan strong team. And so there was a lot of like, what do I do? Because the whole plan was to immediately go back into a build.

But the more I thought about, the more I realized there’s no way that, like, I would just be beating myself up all year if I didn’t do it. If I didn’t, you know, because it’s a dream, you know, you get invited to something you’ve always wanted to do. How can you say no? So we went into kind of like, I mean, we started a recovery diet just where calories were bumped up to closer to maintenance.

And I experienced the post show rebound. Of course we’re not sticking to those calories. Lots of mental challenges with, you know, your body is physically starving at this point. You’re physiologically experiencing so much hunger that even though your brain is like, I’m ready to stop, your body takes over. Your body makes these decisions for you.

You keep going back for more and more food. So that was a really hard time. Of course, it’s never easy going through that again. I’m. I’m probably at the tail end of that right now for this time around. But at some point, you know, I just f. I came to the final decision like, yes, absolutely, I’m going to compete vegan strong. And the computer just went black at that point.

I’ve lost my train of thought. Sorry. We, I, we got back on like, lower calories and it wasn’t, it was kind of a long time, but we just stayed at lower calories but still higher, at the higher end of maintenance for a while just to sort of clean up the physique, to give me goals to stay on plan. It probably took you know, a good probably 90 days for me to feel comfortable around food again, for me to especially start seeing strength coming back in the gym, which was really surprising and

really discouraging. But so you were talking about how you’re trying to regain some performance there in between. I was thinking to myself, mine was 90 days. I would have been shocked if you were, would have been able to experience it that quickly. So I was really, really concerned with not having a long period of time at very, very at competition weight because that was such a struggle this previous time.

And so we did that. We waited. We waited until it was like time appropriate. And I actually ended up once again, it was pretty easy for me to lose the weight again. I’m more of a hard gainer. And this time we wanted to come in a little bit leaner, come in leaner than ever. And by the time I. So the show I was signed up for was you were in cup. And it was really great because I wanted to experience it.

I wanted to experience, you know, the championships, wanted to see that backstage experience and there ended up being so many competitors, but I ended up stepping on stage and I didn’t even realize it. I didn’t even realize it until I started to see the photos that I came on stage. Very, very flat. So we had sort of like depleted too much at that point and wasn’t proud of the photos, but was so happy that I had the experience.

Got to meet so many people that, like, I’ve seen. I’ve seen them on Social. I’ve seen their pictures on like the ocd, like flyers that you get that Marjorie spams you with. And yeah, I was so grateful to do it. It was, it was a hard day because it was the first time that I had stepped off stage and didn’t have anything to show for it. It. So I didn’t take pictures like right afterwards in my bikini.

And I regretted that. So the next day we came back because the women’s show was one day and the men’s show was the next day. So the next day we came back in regular clothes and took pictures, but I was still like, yeah, let’s, you know, I still wanted to get back. Of course, I still want to do Mr. America. And I mean, again, amazing experience. We pretty much maintained leading up until like the last.

The week before my peak week, we did a lot of refeeding and I came and, you know, I wake up competition day and my muscles were so full and my tie ins looked one of the best they’d ever looked. And I went on stage feeling like I just, like I had already won because I had really brought my best presentation and so didn’t place last, didn’t place great.

But Mr. America is cool because you still get a little bit of hardware and just being with the team, there’s nothing like that. And getting to hang out with all these other like minded vegan athletes. Life changing. So that’s. Did I miss anything? That’s where we left off. Off. Because we’re not talking about post competition stuff yet.

Ben:

No, I don’t think you missed anything. I think it’s so important to emphasize that the most helpful thing you can focus on is, like you said, just bringing your best physique to the stage because you never know who else is going to be up there with you. It’s a whole different game going from amateurs to pros.

Right. Once you step up in the pro ranks, it’s like you start, you know, in the amateur, you start at the bottom, you got to work your way up and then the pros, you’re all the way back down to the bottom again.

Alice:

Exactly.

Ben:

You know, you’re kind of just happy to be there and at the same time, of course you’re competitive, of course you want to do well. But you understand logically it’s like, okay, these are all people who just like me won their pro card and it’s, you know, it can be a long climb to the top there. So I think that is a time where it’s even more important to just focus on, okay, am I happy with the physique that I presented here year and just soaking in those experiences?

That’s definitely something. If, you know, if I were in your situation, I would have probably done the same and taken advantage of. What is it like to be at the Orton Cup? What is it like to compete on the Mr. America stage? Because it gives you that perspective and it’s like, okay, this is what I’m working towards now is improving on that last outing and seeing, you know, can I climb up in these now the pro ranks and understanding.

Yeah, it’s going to take, you know, a long time for that to happen. But I’m willing to, I’m willing to put in the time and invest in that. So no, that’s cool. I didn’t have anything else other than that.

Alice:

I think the biggest thing that I learned about myself is just how much of a competitive person I am, which in the past I always called myself like the anti competitor because I’m not into like someone’s going to ask me if I want to play some kind of board game or video game where you have to be competitive with one another and I’m just like, no, absolutely not. But in this case, pace, this is the most competitive I’ve ever felt. And I’m just like, you know, I can’t wait to keep going.

Ben:

You feel like it’s almost because bodybuilding is like competing against yourself versus competing against other people. I mean it is, but it’s like it’s not in a way kind of, you know.

Alice:

Yeah, yeah. I mean I love, I love getting up there and seeing, you know, what the lineup is going to look like. I’ve definitely, you know, learned that of the, of the pros physiques, like I’m just, right now I’m just smaller. I definitely need to put on size. You know, I did really, really great when I was competing as amateur and now it’s like, it’s time to build. So.

Ben:

Did I cover kind of my transition from spring season to fall season and then we can get into some of the stuff around post show recovery and some topics related to that? Okay. So yeah, it was, it was mid June when I started to go back into a deficit for the fall shows. Really the reason that I decided not to just call my season after the spring shows was Mr.

America. Similar to you. It was like, you know, this amazing opportunity. The whole, you know, one of the really reasons that I wanted to prep other than Worlds being in Boston was the Mr. America competition and being a part of plant building built because plant belt pretty much encapsulates all the reasons that I want to compete is to, you know, show people that you can be this, you know, incredible vegan athlete.

And that’s still one of the reasons why bodybuilding is such a, you know, a big part of my life and so important to me. So I was determined to at least do my best to stick it out and to try to bring. I understood at that point that, okay, compared to maybe what I could have brought, I might not be able to reach that, but at least I can focus on, okay, what do I have right now and can I at least working with where I’m at, bring whatever that best package is to the stage because at least I can say like,

you know, I was able to maximize what I had at that point. So I was pretty committed to wanting to, you know, still do Mr. America. So I started dieting again and the first, I don’t know, four, five, six weeks were pretty seamless. So whereas I had been following kind of that meal plan approach. I kind of was following a bit of a meal plan approach to start out.

And then I realized after a couple weeks, after like four or five weeks, I was feeling like I was having. I was being just a little bit more like, crazy, a little bit more food focused. So. So I found that, okay, I could only really, like, adhere to that meal plan for, you know, yeah, it was probably a month. That kind of initial meal plan that I set for myself When I started to go back into a deficit, I’m like, hmm, this is interesting because I hadn’t had really many food focus or like, you

know, issues with hung honestly, throughout my entire prep. Even, like when I ended up calling my season closer to Mr. America in the fall, hunger was oddly just not a thing that was like, super bothersome for me. It was the, it was the food focus that really got to me. It was the thinking about food all the time, the, you know, the cravings. And that wasn’t something that I necessarily experienced as much in the spring.

But as I kind of did that second stint of dieting, you know, six weeks is not a lot of time to recover the symptoms of a 25 week prep. So as I started dieting, I’m like, okay, well, I could follow this meal plan for about a month. And then I was like, okay, I’ll switch to a new plan. And then that one lasted about three weeks. And then I’m like, switch to another one.

That one lasted about two weeks. So that, or, you know, timelines might be a little bit off. But I just found, okay, I’m feeling increasingly restricted with these. So let me try doing kind of like flexible dieting, like if it fits your macros. And that was going okay, But I also found that it was just becoming more diff. The leaner I was getting.

I think the lowest I saw on the scale was like 143. So I was like a good five or six pounds lighter than what I was in the spring, Although I wasn’t that much leaner, which I think also kind of gives credence to the fact that I probably lost some muscle mass there both in the first and second stint of dieting, just because my body was not in a great position to go back into dieting.

But it’s like, you know, what are you going to do? You want to, you know, present your best for the stage and that’s really the only, the only thing that you can do. So I think the first time that I really started to encounter issues was I think it would have been late June, maybe early August was the first time that I basically, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily call it like a.

A binge because I feel like the definition of a binge is like a feeling of a loss of control over food. But I basically just had a day where mentally, psychologically, I was just tapped out from it all. And I just said, f it, I’m gonna eat whatever the hell I want today. And so that was probably a day where I ate, I don’t know, probably like 5 or 6,000 calories.

Obviously, I felt terrible after that. Not psychologically. Psychologically, oddly enough, I actually just didn’t care. It was like this apathy. I was just like. I was just like, I don’t care. I’m just happy to not be like, you know, dieting today. Of course, then when I’m, like, laying in my bed afterwards with, like, a food baby, I’m like, oh, this sucks. Why did you do this? You know, just like, weird stuff where it’s like, you’re so hot, but at the same time you, like, have the

chills because you’re lean. But then it’s like, you know, you ate all this food, so you got the fan on you, but you also blanket. It’s like the weirdest. It just feels gross. You just don’t like it. And you’re like, okay, I’m not doing, like, I’m never doing this again. And then, you know, two or three weeks later, it happens again, and I’m like, it’s still kind of the same thing where I’m like, whatever. Like, I still am making progress. It’s a little bit slower. It’s like, it’s fine.

Alice:

Really good, though. I do want you to give yourself a little bit of credit for that. For it to have that big of a, like, gap, like, bravo.

Ben:

So I did. I kind of was just like, okay, I know, like, the. I know what not to do, right? Because I’m. I’m a coach and I know how to advise people on this thing. So I can kind of try to apply that to myself. I’m like, okay, the thing you’re not going to do is you’re not going to, like, do a bunch of cardio tomorrow and try to restrict your food. You’re just going to go back to what you.

You’re just going to go back to what you were doing before. So that’s what I did. And that lasted another, like, yeah, like 2, 2ish weeks or so. And then it happened again. And then it was like one week and it happened again. And then it was like a couple days and then it happened again. And so I just started to see this pattern. And then it got to the point where obviously progress had slowed and I was actually starting to regress to the point where I was probably.

I don’t know what, like, because obviously the scale weight is a little bit all over the place, but I probably gained back a couple pounds. Months. I was probably like high 140s, maybe like 150. And I was just like, what are you doing, dude? Like, you’re. You’re clearly not psychologically in this anymore. And it was still kind of this feeling of pressure, of not wanting to let people down, let myself down.

And I think I could tolerate it up until the point where it started to be like, okay, this is just like, not. If you let this continue, this is going to have even more damaging effects than what it is right now. So that was kind of the point where it was happening consecutive days in a row where I just decided, okay, I’m going to pull the plug. It’s not worth it to, to keep prepping anymore.

And that was like a big relief when I made that decision, like, psychologically and just like, okay, it’s like it’s over. Like this last, you know, nine or 10 months where you’ve been like, you know, living bodybuilding mode the entire time. You know, it’s finally come to an end. And that was, was, yeah, it really was. It really was a relief to make that decision.

But it wasn’t without its, you know, its challenges. Like, I would say for that month of July, which was probably, yeah, a couple weeks into dieting, you know, I can’t say I didn’t get a diagnosis. It’s not something that I experienced before this. But I would say, you know, I took one of those diagnostic tests and I pretty much met the criteria for, like, depression.

Like, that was one of the only times in my life where I really felt like I wasn’t like, bodybuilding, something that I love. I wasn’t enjoying training anymore. I wasn’t, you know, the same usual activities that gave me joy and fulfillment. I wasn’t feeling that way anymore. I was just kind of this feeling of, like, numbness and like, grayness and everything.

And that was weird because it just wasn’t something that I’ve ever experienced. And it definitely, I think, gave me a little bit of an insight of what it’s like to. To maybe have some kind of clinical depression and gave me more empathy for that situation. And that was something where it was kind of also hard to come to terms with that. Like, okay, wow, you really pushed yourself this hard that this is what it’s come to.

And I so many times thought about throwing in the towel prior to all the food issues kind of starting later in the fall. So many times I just thought about, like, you know, why are you doing this? This isn’t worth it. But I wanted to. I just wanted to try to see it out to the end, you know, the best that I could, and obviously got to a point where that wasn’t feasible anymore.

Yeah. And I, you know, I am. It’s hard for me to say, like, I regret things because, you know, you do the best what you can with, you know, you make the best decisions you can in the circumstances that you’re in. But, yeah, I look back on some of those times and, like, there were times where, like, I remember I got home from the gym one day. I think it was right before July 4th.

We were down on the Cape, which is like this little J of Massachusetts where my parents bought a home. So it was like, you know, it was July 4th weekend. A bunch of my friends were there, my family was there. Should have been this great time. But, like, I remember. Remember I was still getting up super early to go to the gym because my, you know, I had maintained that sleep schedule from when I was working at the gym.

I hadn’t been able to, like, adjust it no matter what I was trying. And I remember. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I just remember got home from the gym, and I was just like, I just sat in my car and I was just thinking about everything that had happened over the past couple months. And I just broke down, like, sobbing in my car after that. And I was just like, this is so hard.

Like, why. Why have I put myself through all this? This is supposed to be enjoyable. And I probably had, like, you know, half a dozen moments like that during that month or, you know, around that time period. And I think it. It definitely showed me that prep is not something you mess around with. It’s. It’s. You know, it’s serious. And you can know all of these things, like, you know, intellectually, but living them and applying them is something else entirely.

So I think it’s definitely given me some perspective. And now being, you know, I called my season late. August now being a September, October, like 10 weeks or so, probably after that, I can say that I’m feeling, you know, mostly back to normal. But it. I think it’s takes a long time to fully recover from something like that. So I think it will still be another couple few months before it really starts to feel that way.

Um, I’m only getting to the point now where I’m starting to get back to training that feels productive and enjoyable again and you know, starting to regain probably some lost muscle mass during the prep. Um, so I think that might be a good time to segue into the post competition season phase that I, I.

Alice:

Forgot about before we go on. For me, for me, I mean, I don’t know if this is going to be the same for everyone, but I really had to find something that was like a hobby, something that I could look forward to that was not like food related. And I’ve talked about this again and again, but it was Pokemon Go for me that I could like, you know, I still had to get these 10,000 steps every day. It’s a game that is easy for me to pick up and put down down. But I would play the game with my siblings and

with my boyfriend and with my siblings partners and it was something that really like kept up my motivation. I really don’t know like how I would have done this long competition season without that. So if that’s something that you know or a piece of wisdom that I can pass on to someone else, like find something that you genuinely love, like that you feel compelled to get out and do that is not food related. And it can be a game changer.

Ben:

Find a way to make it fun. It doesn’t have to be miserable. You know, like, you can find ways to, to make the thing that you have to do anyways more enjoyable. Like it’s nice when it kind of, it doesn’t necessarily have like in your case, the Pokemon Go, like it was also a good way to get some steps in. And so there’s benefits there. But yeah, I think that’s great. Like, even if it is maybe just like sitting down and you know, reading a book or playing some board games with a friend, you know,

whatever it is. Having other things to take your mind off of the prep and staying busy is a big one too. Having stuff to do because I find like sometimes like if I just get absorbed in a block of work, it would be like the day would go by like that and I wouldn’t be thinking about food if I was busy doing stuff where it’s like the days where you’re not really doing as much, you’re kind of just sitting around. That are the, you know, the toughest days.

Alice:

Saturday morning would come around and be like all Right. We’re going out right now.

Ben:

Yep.

Alice:

Instead of staying at home and being like, I want to go in the kitchen, I want to go in the kitchen. Can go out to eat. So.

Ben:

So post show. What. What was that? What has that been like for you? I know it’s only been, you know, a month or couple weeks. I guess we could talk about Mr. America and then also just like, what did you, you know, what was your plan? And then maybe how has that plan shifted or stayed the same? And then we could also, let’s save the. Save the off season. Talking about, you know, future plans, or we could tie it in. I don’t know. Whatever you think.

Alice:

Well, original plans. You know, I. We had. My boyfriend and I had planned a vacation originally. It was going to be like we were going to come home from Mr. America. A couple of days later, we were going to leave for this vacation, but we had to bump it out an extra week, which was a good thing because I got sick at Mr. America. Even on Sunday, the day after I competed, I was already feeling it.

And I didn’t realize that I had actually caught something at that time. But that whole day was a huge struggle. And I look back at, like, our team photos and I can see it on my face. I’m like, I look orange and not from the tan, not in a good way. It’s like a sick or so that, you know, really was a challenge. Thankfully, I barely got better for the, like, in time for this vacation.

The vacations. Oh, gosh, it was so hard because energy level was so low. All we wanted to do was go on hikes and enjoy, like, the fall colors being end of October and going out every day, like in the morning. You know, normally I get started, I get warmed up and I. And it gives me more energy. And I can go and hike on a hike forever and be like, just so happy.

I’m in my element. This. In this case, I wasn’t. There was no warming up. There might have been, like, on the way back, you know, I would feel a little bit of burst of energy and like, try to try to get back to the car faster. But it didn’t last very long. I was just exhausted. And every time I sat down, like, in the car, every time I, like, laid down a little bit, I was out cold.

So it was like I was either hiking or sleeping or eating. And we did lots of celebratory meals. Of course, probably too much, but, you know, at the same time, I’m of the opinion that you’ve been. Been Especially if you’re, you’ve been dieting for such a long period of time, you’ve been denying yourself like all of the treat foods and all of the celebration foods.

It’s too long, it’s too long to be, you know, mentally good for you. So I was of the opinion, like, all right, right now is the time where we need to go easy on ourselves. Because I’ve also reached the point where it’s, you come to the realization when you’ve done so many preps, you realize that weight loss, it’s really, it’s really awful. Like when you get to peak week, right?

But before that it’s not, you know, once you understand the variables, you know your body, you know what you need to do to lose weight, it’s like, it’s less scary. So I enjoyed my vacation towards the end. I was trying to rein it in a little bit, of course, worse. But it’s even, even since coming home, it’s been an ongoing challenge around food.

Still have to have a controlled environment as long as I have, you know, which is depressing, right? You want to have the treat foods in your house and be able to have, you know, self control around them. But that’s not there. Because the biggest thing you realize in competition prep, like, your body has its own opinion about things and your brain may be thinking, I’m okay, I’m good.

But your body, you know, your hormones will take over. You’ll, you’ll, you’ll do things that you feel are out of character. It’s very disturbing, it’s very scary. It’s very depressing. You know, every day I think I come to myself. I come, like, I have a little come to Jesus moment with myself and I’m just like, I think I’m getting better. I think I’m getting better.

And you’ll have periods that are better and then you’ll have periods where I’m not better. So it’s only been literally like you said, one month to the day. And historically it’s about 90 days for me. So I’m trying to just be patient because I think the hardest thing, other than not having unpredictable moments around food, not being able to trust yourself around food, is that you’re right, the gym is no longer an enjoyable thing.

Especially because what really drives me in the gym is seeing my strength gains, setting new PRs, seeing those numbers go up week after week. And that’s just not going to happen for a little while at this point. It’s just sort of like, try and maintain, try and maintain, see if you can get back to at least, least where you were in the spring. And it’s just a process. I think that’s, I think that’s my thoughts.

Ben:

I can relate to a lot of that. So my experience, deciding to come out of prep, I started off by just giving myself a certain kind of macro range or target to aim for, like on the higher side. Knowing that it was going to be, even if I gave myself a lot, it was going to be easy to get to that. So I chose a target that I thought was reasonable but adherable.

And the first week it was pretty easy. And you know, I was not really having any issues with it. But I still noticed that I still had some of these prep habits. So I was still, you know, going on walks and realizing like, you know, my steps count were way down. Given that I was just kind of going for a little walks after meals to kind of help with digestion.

But I realized that even doing these little things like going for the walks or paying attention to my food, I was still just like so sick of it and thinking of food all the time. Like it was. I remember just thinking like, my mind is in a prison. Like it just can’t escape the thought of food like 24 7. And it bugged me so much. I just like really did not like that because usually, like in my off seasons, I’m not a food focused person.

I don’t really care. It’s like, whatever. And it really bothered me that I was just thinking about, about food constantly, all the time. To the point where like, I’d be having a conversation with somebody and I’d be thinking about food, I’d be doing work and I’d be thinking about food. And it was just like, oh God, I feel like I’m still just like living in this, this, this prep prison that I’ve created for myself.

Even though I’m, I’m post showing like, yeah, the logical part of your brain is like, you just got to give it time. It’s going to dissipate, it’s going to go away as you’re gaining kind of the weight back. But part of me was just like impatient. Just like, I don’t want to wait, I don’t care. Like, I just want to get the recovery over with. And so I was basically just like, like effort.

I’m just going to eat, you know, eat whatever I want, try not to feel sick and know that I’m going to put on a lot of weight really fast. But like, the only thing That I was thinking was, like, I literally don’t care. And, like, one bit about how I look like my body composition right now does not matter to me. I just want my mental, like, clarity and sanity back. So I tried to make it to the point where I was not feeling physically ill or sick.

I did not accomplish that many, many times. And it was again, kind of that case of like, all right, it’s been a couple days of this. I’m ready to kind of, like, you know, ease things up. And then you would kind of get, you know, have some sense of normalcy and routine back, and then it would just be like, nope, okay, I thought we were over this, but clearly we’re not over this.

Alice:

Exactly.

Ben:

And it was kind of just that. Yeah, that. That constant back and forth. And so I would say that that went on for a good. A good month or so, maybe a little bit more. A. A month or two. And, yeah, obviously, like, I gained a good amount of weight back, but it was. Again, it wasn’t.

Alice:

It just.

Ben:

It didn’t really bother me. Like, I was just, like, accepting of the fact that, okay, I’ll probably get back to feeling normal faster, even if it’s not that much faster. It’s like I just couldn’t. I couldn’t deal. I couldn’t cope with it mentally anymore. So, yeah, of course, it’s like you get those comments from people like, oh, you’re looking different, like, certain.

That sort of thing. That didn’t even. That didn’t even bother me either. I just literally didn’t care because I obviously knew that I see myself every day and, you know, I wasn’t weighing myself because I knew that that would just, like that, you know, what’s the point? That’s not going to help. I, again, just, like, didn’t care. It was kind of this state of, like, apathy that I had developed.

We were just, like, not caring about things. And so then eventually it did kind of get to the point where it calmed down. And I would say that I’m at the point now and probably have been for the past. I’d say only really, like, a couple weeks. I would say, probably, yeah, like, coming back from Mr. America a little bit after that, I started to kind of feel a little bit more back to normal.

Still eating, definitely above maintenance, for sure, but not having kind of these massive, like, you know, eating episodes where I’m just eating everything in sight. So. So, yeah, it takes time. And, you know, I think had I exited my season in the spring, I probably wouldn’t have encountered a lot of these issues because I didn’t dig myself as. I wouldn’t have dug myself as big of a hole. So I think next time, given the fact, you know, if I plan my prep a little bit better, you know,

planning on getting a coach for it as well, I think those are all things that can help with the recovery phase from a prep. But it’s never going to be easy. No matter if you have a coach or you don’t have a coach or you have the best plan, you don’t have a plan. You know, everyone deals with the kind of the post prep phase a little bit differently. Some people recover easier or faster. Some people, it takes months. And that’s. That’s totally okay. Everyone’s a little bit different.

Alice:

I liked what you said about not weighing yourself. Not really seeing the point of doing that. I think, for sure, like, if we try and have the reins too tight as we’re coming out of this competition season and, you know, we’re going to rebel, the body is going to take over. You’re going to rubber band in the opposite direction. So I agree, like, not spending a lot of time looking at yourself in the mirror, being aware of what’s happening to your body, but not beating yourself up about it

at first, not weighing yourself, you know, at some point, it’s like, all right, I can see sort of what’s happening. I’m not, like, nitpicking. I’m not going to make myself feel terrible. At the same time, it’s like, all right, we’re starting to reach a point. We’re starting to reach a point. And you sort of talk yourself back into, all right, am I ready to get back on the scale today? Am I ready to get back on the scale today?

And I use that as. That’s sort of like my motivation to be like, this is one thing that’s starting to hold you accountable. That’s starting to make you veer in the direction of getting back on plan more frequently. Not like it’s a light switch. Not like it’s magic. Magic. But, yeah, the scales definitely has been strategic for me in that way. So I really love that you said that.

Ben:

I think that you do get to a point where it’s good to start bringing these tools back in. And like you said, like, not tightening the reins so much that it causes you to rubber band to the other direction, but still having some checks and balances and, you know, it’s. I. I can. On one hand, I can say what I would do with someone I’m coaching versus what I ended up doing.

And I think part of that is just being honest about he, you know, I just didn’t give an F anymore. And I decided that I was okay accepting the consequences and the responsibilities of what body composition that would bring about. And I know that at the same time, not everyone’s like that. Like, for some people it would make, it would be worse because they would, you know, that body composition would upset them so much that it would, it would be worse than

whatever food focus or whatever other things that they were dealing with. So I think it takes knowing yourself and, you know, like you said, doing the best that you can for sure.

Alice:

And it doesn’t have to be on the scale. You know, you could do other kind of, you know, you could be doing body measurements if that’s less sensitive for you. You could just be doing progress photos or, you know, you could start reintroducing whichever is easiest first and then continue like. All right, now I think I’m ready to add progress photos back into the mix.

Now I’m ready to add measurements back into the mix. You know, of course, having a coach that you can check in with and talk to about these things and at least be reporting some one metric to that coach, all these things, just adding the accountability back, checking in with yourself with things like the hunger and fullness scale and still just giving yourself grace.

It’s just a process that you can get better and better at. But before you know it, like, oh, we’re going to have, we’re going to have a bad day, it’s going to happen. But, but you move on. You don’t punish yourself. Just like you said, you don’t over restrict, you don’t skip a meal, you don’t go walk 30,000 steps again.

Ben:

And I think it doesn’t even necessarily have to be a body composition tool. If you’ve just kind of just been winging it with food, giving yourself a range of macros and sticking to that, like that’ll probably keep, you know, if you have a history as well, you know, like, okay, around this weight, I tend to maintain with, you know, the X amount of calories. If you’re kind of sticking to those targets, then, you know, okay, at least to an extent.

I’m keeping things somewhat in check until you’re ready to get back to those more, I guess, you know, direct measurements of what it is that we’re after. Um, do you want to talk about kind of your plans for your, your, your building, your improvement season, your off season? Going forward and if you’ve thought about when you might next compete or if you’re leaving it kind of up in the air.

Alice:

Yeah, so I just want to get bigger. I just want to build as much as I can. I feel like it’s weird for a female to be saying this, but I’m actually like, I’m setting weight goals for myself to try and reach, push myself to all new highs. I’m going to dedicate, I want to dedicate two years of straight up building. I’m not saying it’s going to be two years until I compete again.

I’m saying it’s going to be two years of building continuously. Maybe there might be a mini cut in there if things got out of control, but I really am leaning towards, I don’t want to do that. I just want to be able to have as much uninterrupted muscle building as possible. And I’m excited because I would really, really love it if I could one day compete in something other than the bikini.

It’s the most, it’s even, you know, my physique is very good for it, my genetics are very good for it. But I would love to be able to compete in something that’s less about your stage presence and your posing and being sexy. All the things that typically I’m like, that’s not, that’s not how I would like, you know, describe myself at all. But we’ll see, we’ll see. However it shakes out, I’m not going to force myself into another category that I don’t fit into because ultimately I want to

be as competitive as possible. But yeah, building as much as I can. And if it shakes out that I don’t fit into a clear category, that’s fine too because ultimately it’s about the bodybuilding for me. It’s not necessarily like all about fitting into some judge’s credentials.

Ben:

About the process of bodybuilding, about the self improvement and kind of the enjoyment and satisfaction that you get out of that.

Alice:

So definitely going to compete again. It’ll be, it’s, it’s going to be challenging competing as a pro. You know, let’s be real. You know, I definitely don’t regret the fact that I just competed in New York and Cup and Mr. America, because I know, I know that looking back at, I would, I would beat myself up more, more if I had not done it. But at the same time, the whole time I’m in my head thinking, you know, you’re probably not ready yet.

You’re probably your physique is probably not there yet to be doing these things. So you know, that moment of regret, you know, walking off the Yorton stage, being like, oh, that didn’t feel good, you know, but able to, being able to turn that around and spin the positive out of it because I got so much out of that, it was such a positive. Like I, I talk about this all the time but even, even backstage at the Orton it was such a big show, but it still felt like any other OCD show to me beside,

other than just there are so many competitors. But everyone backstage still had the same like energy. Everyone was very kind and you know, I’m grateful that that brings another point. I’m just grateful to be, be a natural athlete competing in these natural organizations because you hear all the horror stories of

competing in these non tested federations. People being taken advantage of, especially women and the drug use that is almost forced upon you. So just, just so much gratitude.

Ben:

There’s also something about just being surrounded by physiques or by people that you look up to that you get along with and that being inspiring and just saying like, wow, that’s, that’s so awesome, like this makes me want to pursue my best version of myself because that’s ultimately what bodybuilding is about. Everyone’s there because I think that’s part of the reason you get this camaraderie because it’s like, yeah, you’re competing against each other, but everyone’s

kind of had, you know, we’re in it for the same reasons. We love, we love doing this thing and there is just a sense of connection that comes with that. We all do, we all dieted, we all kind of, you know, to an extent, quote unquote, suffered to get here. And so, you know, now we just get a chance to go up there and may the best person win sort of thing. So that’s definitely, definitely the vibe that I get at shows.

Alice:

Yeah, yeah. And you know, when you get backstage and when you see who’s going to be in your lineup, you know, after a certain number of shows you can eyeball and get a sense of how you’re going to do like, like even before you step on a step up st. Step up on stage, so you get better and better at that as well. It all depends on who shows up. And you just gotta have that experience to be able to recognize that like, oh, today’s gonna go my way or today.

But yeah, as long as you’re bringing your best self, it’s about that constant improvement and it’s about Feeling good about how. Feeling good about your peak week, Feeling good about your performance. You know, everything, the whole package.

Ben:

Yep. I don’t, I don’t have too much to add to that.

Alice:

What about you? Post competition? How are you feeling? I mean, like, what are your goals?

Ben:

I mean, yeah, so I’m not sure exactly, exactly when I want to compete again. I do want to compete again. I know that. Although during my season it was hard to imagine doing it again. It’s like once you kind of step away from. And I knew that that was going to happen. Like, I knew, like I can say when I was during my season, I’m like, okay, I know right now I can’t imagine doing this again, but I’m sure with some time away, I’ll want to do it again.

And it was funny even being at the Mr. America, being like six weeks post show, I’m like, oh, I can’t wait to do this again. Watching people up on stage, stage, and I’m like, wow, it’s so crazy how the mind works. But yeah, it’s kind of the same deal for me is that I just need more time to build and add size everywhere. I think I’m pretty proportional all around.

I didn’t get that most of the shows that I did. I was placing well in the symmetry rounds and just a little bit outside of center on the muscularity round. So what that says to me is that, yeah, you’re pretty proportional. You’ve got a good frame. You just need to fill it out a little bit more. And I do see that with myself. So I think it’s probably going to be, if I can hold off, I would like to commit to a solid minimum of, of two or three years of building.

But realistically, like, what I would love to be able to do, to hold out if I can wait to compete that long, is to have like a nice like four or five years of just like dedicated building and then get on stage the next time. And I’m not necessarily setting strict timelines around it, but the way that I’m viewing it is I want to be extremely confident in where my physique is at when I decide to prep again in the future.

And I would like to have a physique that even if I don’t earn a pro card, I would like to have a physique that is pro worthy. So, you know, you can step up on a stage and someone comes out of the woodwork from nowhere and, you know, they, they beat you because they’re just like a phenom like that, that’s just gonna happen. That’s okay. If that happened at two or three shows that I went to, and that was the case that I just got beat by someone better.

But I still felt like I had a physique that, like, okay, if I was to earn pro status, I could jump into a pro lineup and not look out of place. Like, that would be the goal for my physique the next time around. And that is kind of subjective, so there’s no definite criteria. But I think it’s one of those cases of, like, I’ll know when I know. And what’s exciting to me is I’ve really only had, you know, combined total about two or three years of building since I got into bodybuilding and

fitness. And I’ve continued to learn about training and how to get more out of that and learn my body. So it’s like, okay, I’ve never really had this long of a dedicated fill phase of just committing to muscle growth continuously and doing the same thing. I heard this quote earlier this week, which I think, you know, the hard. The hardcore bodybuilder in me loves it.

But then there’s other. Another aspect to me that’s like. That’s kind of stupid. You don’t need to do it that way. But it was basically like, bodybuilding is about the ability to tolerate Groundhog Day over and over and just like, do the same thing, which I think it is to an extent. Like, you need, like, if you look at the best bodybuilders, they have a routine, they’re doing similar things every time.

Of course, there are ways to do it that make it more sustainable, like, you know, flexible dieting and understanding that, okay, you know, I can have some nights where I’m going to bed a little bit later. My routine’s a little bit off. But I do think for the most part, you have to have a routine and you have to fall in love with that routine or find a way to make it enjoyable in order to be in the sport for a long time.

Because it’s a game of patience and time and how long can you just stick at it and be consistent? And I mean, it’s no different from just like, fitness and general. General. Most of our clients, I would say, are bodybuilders at heart. They want a better body composition, which means building muscle and losing body fat.

It’s just, to what extreme or to what level do you take that? So I think that is maybe a good message to kind of end on is just like, yeah, this Thing takes a lot of time, but if you can find a way to really just enjoy the process of it, then time does go by quicker than you would expect.

Alice:

Yeah, I love the Groundhog Day term and concept. That’s, that’s pretty accurate. And yeah, a lot of people find that they love the off season and once they compete, it’s just something that they don’t want to do, they don’t look forward to doing. But just because you’re not competing doesn’t mean you’re not a bodybuilder. There’s, you know, lifestyle. Bodybuilders are training the exact same way we are. They’re just skipping the extreme diet, getting.

You’re probably still doing a lot of cuts. I mean, they’re probably still getting really close and looking amazing. They’re just not putting themselves through that, like, suffering stage. So, yeah, I hope that anyone listening to this doesn’t think that, you know, oh, I’m not a bodybuilder, because I’m not stepping on that stage. It’s not true at all.

Ben:

Yeah, I think everyone, if you want to call yourself a bodybuilder, you’re a bodybuilder. You know, it’s an inclusive community. Community. And if you want to be a competitive bodybuilder or you want to be a recreational bodybuilder, that is what we do here at Vegan Proteins. Online coaching. We work with folks from all backgrounds who are aspiring to step on stage, who are just starting on their kind of foray into fitness with weight training, with dieting, whatever it is.

We work with a whole spectrum and wide range of folks. So if you are interested in working with one of our expert coaches here at Vegan Proteins, we have a whole team, an awesome team that is ever expanding and growing. And if you’re interested in learning more about that, you can head over to veganproteins.com and hit the contact button.

You can find us over on Instagram at Vegan Proteins. Alice at Ben A. Mitchell at Muscles by Brussels at Danny Taylor at Soy Boy Fitness coaching. Proteins at Vegan Proteins. At Vegan Proteins. At Vegan proteins. I can’t say that one enough. Alice, anything else you want to add before we close things out here?

Alice:

No, I just. Yeah, let’s. Let’s touch base again about our build in the next, I don’t know, quarter or maybe in two quarters. I’d love to continue this conversation because you and I always have a lot to go off of. We lay off each other.

Ben:

Yeah, yeah. If you listeners would be interested in kind of getting like an ongoing updated series on Alice and I and our bodybuilding journeys and where we’re at with that on a regular basis, please let us know. You’re going to have to comment down below or maybe we won’t do it, I don’t know. So you’re going to have to let us know that you enjoyed the episode. If you can, like comment and subscribe. If you’re over on YouTube channel, that would be much appreciated. If you’re over on

sponsor Spotify, please give us a rating. Five stars would be recommended, but I’m not going to require it. That really helps us to push the podcast out to more people. And you know, if you want to do get in contact with us, please, any of the methods that we, that we kind of laid out earlier, coach veganproteins.com you can reach out there as well. And thank you for listening to another episode of Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels Radio. I’m Ben.

Alice:

And I’m Alice and we’ll catch you.

Ben:

On the next one. Bye, everyone.

Alice:

Bye.