Dani and Sawyer break down the essentials of nutrition and training, explaining why consistency matters more than chasing perfection. They discuss the benefits of tracking protein and calories, the pitfalls of fitness fads, and how to build sustainable habits for long-term success.
Highlights from this episode:
- Why tracking protein and calories is enough for most people
- The difference between optimizing for general fitness vs. competition prep
- The truth about fad diets and fitness gimmicks
- How to create a sustainable system for long-term results
Tune in for an honest, relatable chat that goes beyond the highlight reels and into the heart of what it means to connect authentically.
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Related Phrases:
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Transcript:
[Sawyer:]
Hello everyone, welcome back to Vegan Protein Muscles by Brussels Radio. I’m Sawyer.
[Dani:]
And I’m Dani.
[Sawyer:]
And this is episode 209.
[Dani:]
I realize you and I have only recorded one podcast together so far. And it was the one that was in person, so this is a bit different than that. Feels like it wasn’t that long ago, but I guess it was many months ago, right?
[Sawyer:]
Was it November or something like that?
[Dani:]
November, yeah. No, time’s moving too fast. Not into it.
So how have you been? What have you been up to?
[Sawyer:]
Since November, I’ve been not as focused on fitness. I think other things have occupied my mind. We’ve talked about that.
But recently, I just got back from Yosemite yesterday. And that was epic. That was really cool.
And there was that protest, that upside-down flag. I don’t know if you heard about that.
[Dani:]
Yes, yeah. In the park, right?
[Sawyer:]
Yeah, on El Cap. And I didn’t see it. I was there, and I didn’t actually see it.
So I was like, did that happen? I don’t know. But whatever, anyway.
Well, it’s huge.
[Dani:]
The park is huge. And it’s also possible it got taken down, like, quickly.
[Sawyer:]
Immediately, yeah.
[Dani:]
Did you see any cool stuff? Like, in particular, while you were there?
[Sawyer:]
Yeah, that place was awesome. I mean, we saw so many waterfalls. I always go to the water.
That’s my thing. So that’s why I love Washington and the Pacific Northwest so much. But yeah, we just did a lot of hiking.
Like, my calves and ankles are really sore this morning. But it was a lot of fun. It was just really cool.
I’ve been there in the summer before. The difference between the number of people that were there in the summer and in the winter is, like, crazy. So go in the winter, people.
It is so much better.
[Dani:]
What are the temperatures like there in the winter?
[Sawyer:]
You know, I was really afraid it was going to be, like, really cold. But we were fine. Like, I just had, like, we were in the van.
But it was me and my little brothers and my cousin. And we didn’t need, like, any heating or anything. It was just, like, insulated van, body heat, comforters.
Sweet.
[Dani:]
That’s awesome. Don’t come to Acadia Park in Maine in the winter.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah.
[Dani:]
It’s mobbed in the summer, but that’s because it’s, like, unlivable in the winter.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. I would imagine in those northern latitudes, it’s pretty tough.
[Dani:]
Yeah.
[Sawyer:]
Yosemite’s not bad in the winter, at least not my experience.
[Dani:]
I think Giacomo and I went there once when we were moving back from Oregon to Massachusetts. We did, like, a full U-shape to come back. It took us, like, two weeks.
It was awesome. And I’m pretty sure Yosemite was one of them. I can’t keep all the parks straight, so I can’t remember which park we visited.
Yeah. We visited a couple. So even though you haven’t been, like, as focused on fitness, well, I have personal questions, first of all.
Like, do you still feel like you’re getting, like, your training in?
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. I’m still doing it. I think it’s just I’m less passionate about it.
I’m doing less extra stuff. Like, in my program, I have what I call, like, focus lifts, and I’ll do, like, highlighted lifts, and then I’ll be like, Eh, do I feel like doing more? Usually the answer is yes.
These last few months, not all the time.
[Dani:]
But I think, I mean, obviously, extenuating circumstances notwithstanding, I still think that, like, those phases, and you and Ben talked about this on a podcast not that long ago. I do feel like those phases happen to everyone. If you’re in fitness long enough, like, you’re going to go through a phase where you’re not into it, and you almost maybe resent it a little bit even.
But, like, the grown-up part of your brain is like, Oh, this is good for me.
[Sawyer:]
I’m just going to do it. Yeah, it is. It’s nice to have the habit intact still.
Like, I think it would feel really weird to just skip it all together, and I know that something would be, like, wrong if I wasn’t even doing that at all.
[Dani:]
Yeah.
[Sawyer:]
But the passion behind, like, Oh, let’s get as big and as lean as possible, and, you know, see what I’m capable of, that kind of thing has been less of an emphasis lately. And, yeah, you can’t really force that kind of stuff. I don’t know.
Which might be a good segue into what we’re talking about today. I don’t know.
[Dani:]
Yeah. Well, you had made a post. Maybe you didn’t make it yesterday.
I’ve been very not on Instagram lately, and I’ve just realized, like, you know, I need to go on there and check my DMs to see if somebody is, like, trying to reach out to me over something important. And I saw your post yesterday about, you know, it doesn’t have to be either or or all or nothing. Like, you can have times where you do more in time, basically auto-regulation of your training depending on how you’re feeling, what your circumstances are, et cetera.
And I love that concept so freaking much. I wish to God that I could drill that into more people’s heads. Actually, this is funny.
Giacomo and I are very different in this way, where I am very much, like, on a spectrum at any point in time, and he is just, like, has very dichotomous thinking naturally. He’s like, well, if we can’t do this, then I guess we’re going to do blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, well, it doesn’t have to be either or.
There are other options. And it reminds me of kind of what we’re talking about today, which is something I see a lot in our community, in just the fitness community in general, and that’s people overcomplicating their nutrition in what I think is very unnecessarily. Very rarely is that necessary.
Is it something that you deal with a lot also?
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. I mean, and I did it too, right? Like, I don’t know.
I think you want to do it the right way the first time, obviously, especially when you have the most motivation and you feel like you have the most potential to change, and you’re like, oh, I want to do it right. But it can quickly become overwhelming. And especially over the long term, you need to have a system in place that you feel like feels better.
I always tell people, like, it feels better to do it than to not do it. And so if you ever start to get to the point where you’re like, oh, God, like I can’t do all the stuff that I want to in my life, where I feel kind of trapped or closed in, then you’re probably a little bit too rigid. And if you feel like you’re not able to make consistent progress in the direction that you want, then you’re probably a little too loose.
And so that’s kind of the barometer I use for, like, you need to be between the two poles somewhere. You might shift a little bit during different seasons, but you need to just take an inventory every now and then and just be like, is this still working?
[Dani:]
Yeah. That reminds me of the podcast Alice and I did pretty recently, like, are you a pusher or are you a slacker? You could be kind of the over-thinker, over-doer in one area of your life, but then kind of the opposite in another area of your life.
[Sawyer:]
That’s true. That’s a really good point. We tend to, like, think that we’re two-dimensional and we’re like, no, I’m so organized.
It’s like, oh, yeah, well, when’s the last time you thought about this thing?
[Dani:]
Yeah. Right. So do you think this is just like a, because I don’t, but I’m curious to hear your take on it because you said you did this.
I know I did this at a certain point as well. Do you think this is like a new fitness person problem, like over-complicating nutrition? And first of all, before we even get to that, what do we even mean by that like over-complicating your nutrition?
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. Good question. So I would say that’s when we’re focusing on inputs and like variables that don’t really have a big effect, like things that are kind of minute and they could affect things that like the highest level, like, you know, on stage or whatever when that kind of detail matters, but you’re trying to do that like year round when it doesn’t really matter that much.
And then it starts to wear on you. It starts to become tedious. If it starts to become, I think we talked about this in the live podcast, we did the pebble in your shoe, that metaphor, like that kind of stuff.
If you start loading your shoes up with little tiny pebbles and they start boring holes in your feet, you’re going to feel it and you’re going to stop really enjoying the whole process eventually. And so I think when you have that level of specificity, that’s like really hard to maintain, but the effects are so small that it’s like you can either do them or not do them and not really notice the difference. Then you getting to a position where you could just feel like burned out and just feel like nothing you do matters.
Even though there’s some things that you’re doing that are driving the progress forward, that they’re carrying all the heavy weight. And then the little things you’re doing that are just tedious and annoying aren’t really doing that much.
[Dani:]
Or they can even distract you from doing the bigger things that actually matter. That’s one thing that I have seen a lot. So if we’re looking at like new people who are kind of newer to fitness and they’re just trying to figure this all out for the first time, I think that part of the over complication of nutrition is by design.
Like that is by design in the industry to confuse the ever loving shit out of people so that they don’t know what to do. They don’t feel capable of doing it on their own. So, oh, buy this program.
We’ll do it for you basically.
[Sawyer:]
That’s so true. Yeah, no, it’s true. People who have been thoroughly marketed to end up with more questions than answers, especially in this realm.
And I think one thing that I like to do with people who are feeling overwhelmed, like who just keep coming at me with questions that don’t really matter is we might need to stick him outside soon, but is to basically compare it to an area of their life that they understand really well. So give them metaphors. Like, you know, if somebody is a construction worker and I was like, Hey, how important do you think, you know, planning for these kinds of trellises and like these kinds of things are, and these like very niche things, they’d be like, Oh, don’t worry about that.
You know what I mean? I’d be like, that’s what you’re asking me about right now. You know what I mean?
Like I would try to frame it in a way that they understand so that they would not freak out about the little minutia that just pinged in their brain from the marketing that they heard or whatever came up that they were thinking about and get them to kind of know that that’s, that’s there. You can learn about it if you want to. We can talk about that, but just know that that’s like small potatoes, my dude.
Like that’s, that’s not gonna really impact your journey right now. Or maybe ever some of these things.
[Dani:]
That is such a good idea. And it’s pretty rare that someone says something to me at this point. And I’m just like, wow, I’ve never heard that before.
That is such a good idea to explain this to people in that way, in something that they are maybe an expert or close to it in. So they realize.
[Sawyer:]
Well, we all have stuff like that, right? We all have stuff we feel competent in and we’ve invested enough time and energy in, um, to the point where it’s like, oh, I just kind of know this and it doesn’t give me anxiety anymore.
[Dani:]
Yeah.
[Sawyer:]
So if you can find that thing with somebody, it’s like, bam, you got an easy window for like just shuttling in lessons, fitness lessons that they can just attach onto other lessons they already have, you know?
[Dani:]
Yeah. That’s a really good, I’m going, I’m going to do that from now on. I’ve never thought to do it that way.
I mean, I’ve certainly explained, you know, the pebbles and the big rocks in the sand and the blood, you know, that story and everything, but I’ve never thought to be, to literally pose a kind of silly question about something that they are very good at. Uh, but you know, I might not even know if it’s a silly question or not, because I certainly would ask silly questions about other things that I don’t know anything about. I’m sure I would.
[Sawyer:]
That’s another effect that it would have is like people understanding like, oh, okay, this is your thing. But like, you’re not dumb for asking those questions. Just like we wouldn’t be dumb for asking about construction questions.
It’s like anybody who knows a lot about a certain topic knows how, where people get usually turned around and they can, you know, they have more, I think empathy for people who are get in that process of figuring out because they went through that, you know what I mean?
[Dani:]
Right. Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Wow. Such a good idea.
[Sawyer:]
But it was hard because you, yeah, I’m, I’m really glad that you, uh, got that. I think the hardest part is just knowing anything about certain things. Other people know that are really niche.
Maybe, I don’t know. There’s gotta be something. So I usually look around for I dig around in somebody’s psyche for like something that I know at least something about, right.
And I try to use that. Yeah. Great idea.
Cool.
[Dani:]
So, okay. That’s, that’s a good example for people who are overcomplicating nutrition, like from the beginning, like, why are they doing it? They’re doing it because they just, they don’t know and they want to do it right.
It’s, I think it’s, that’s coming from a very good place. I think all of these are coming from a good place. Nobody’s like, well, I guess there’s probably some masochists out there that are trying to just make their life harder, but I think most people, they just want to get good results, be healthy, blah, blah, blah.
I also think this is one that I don’t hear a lot of people talking about. And I happen to see this all the time is that the planning, the planning of the diet feels like progress. Like when you sit down to plan out all this minutia of, I’m going to have this meal at this time.
And it’s going to be 18 and a half minutes before my workout. And then right after I’m going to slam a protein shake, like that feels like you’re actually doing something, even though you’re not. So like your brain gets the dopamine, like you’ve accomplished something when all you’ve done is like noodle around with a notebook.
And I love that. The dopamine I get from noodling around with a notebook.
[Sawyer:]
Oh, for sure.
[Dani:]
But at the end of the day, it does very, very little to actually get me closer.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. I think, I think it’s, yeah, that totally makes sense. And that happens to me during certain periods too.
The more my anxiety about it goes up, the more I’m like, this feels good to plan out like the exact rate of loss I want to accomplish and like all these things. And it’s like, it’s not that it’s totally useless. I think there’s a point to which it becomes like, okay, this is, this is helpful because it’s different slightly.
I’m going to learn from something I did last time, or I want to do something a little differently, but you’re right. There is a point at which like it’s excessive. You’re, you’re going, you’re doing more than you need to, because it feels good in the moment to do that.
[Dani:]
Right.
[Sawyer:]
And that in that way, you’re encouraging yourself to over-complicate things with the, with the idea of like, oh, this is going to be so much better than last time, or I’m going to make so much more progress or whatever. And you’re kind of setting yourself up for failure because it’s like the same physiological mechanism still exists. The same lifestyle limitations still exist.
[Dani:]
Yeah. And I don’t want to, I’m not trying to knock planning. I think planning is really important, but you got to know yourself also.
Like if you’re the person that’s been planning your perfect diet for two years, but you’re still not like eating vegetables on a regular basis, you’re you’re kidding yourself, you know, or you’ve bought all the meal prep containers and that felt really good, but they’ve been sitting in your cabinet for six months. Like, I, I just, I wish, you know, I actually, I remember this was years ago now, watching this, I guess it was a YouTube video or a podcast or something about how the whole self-improvement sector, like this is literally how they make their money is because they know that you love to learn about it and hear about it. You’re probably not actually going to do a whole lot with it.
So you’ll just keep coming back for more self-improvement. Right.
[Sawyer:]
That’s so interesting. Yeah. I mean, it’s kind of like, I think, what was I thinking just now I was thinking, you know, it’s, it’s easy to, not only overcomplicate things, but feel like, gosh, I was going to say something now.
I totally, totally escaped me, but anyway, I don’t know. I think you’re totally right about that being like a very common phenomenon. And it’s, it’s something I’ve fallen into several times in the past.
And I think it’s like, it’s fun and it’s not bad to have fun. I was going to say like, you need to bring it back to the practical too in the sense that like it needs to be enjoyable. So like if you’re focusing all your enjoyment right now on like how good it feels to have the perfect plan, you might be ignoring.
And this is like some things in some ways this can help for like instance, you know, making your grocery list ahead of time can make you make better decisions in the grocery store and you’re not so impulsive and all that stuff. But I think taken to this extreme, like if you spend weeks planning a diet or something like that you can completely forego or completely ignore how enjoyable it is going to be to do those things. Like you’re just thinking right now, this is fun to plan and I’m trying to make it super logistically perfect and in terms of how like much progress I can make, but you’re completely ignoring the dopamine that you’re going to need to keep going or like the enjoyment of the process.
I’m like the day of, you’re sitting down to eat and you’re like, I don’t want to eat this same thing. Exactly. So yeah.
So I think that you can get a little bit delusional and you get a little bit caught up in that dopamine of planning everything so well that you completely ignore what future me is going to feel like actually doing those things. And that can really, I mean, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot.
[Dani:]
Yeah. Totally. I have, I have notebooks upon notebooks upon notebooks of, this is over 15 years ago.
I was like not well with my relationship with food or my body at all. It is just full of meal plans, just full of meal plans that I had written for myself after weekends of eating like a whole birthday cake or something. Like here’s what we’re going to do.
Here’s how we’re going to fix this. And then when it came time to actually do it, I would just binge on something else. So the problem, you know, it was like, okay, I gotta be real with myself.
What the problem is here. Even at that point, just focusing on like, okay, this is how much we need to eat, which I would normally consider to be one of the big rocks, right? Like calories, big rock.
That was still too small of a rock for me at that point. It had to be like, dude, you are, you are messed up in the head. And you need to fix that without worrying about that.
[Sawyer:]
Like that’s why that’s makes so much. And I can relate to that so much. And I think that’s why we became coaches.
Cause we were like, okay, we need to like help other people fix their neuroses that we had. But what I was thinking when you were saying that was like, not only, oh my God, I used to do that, but also like when people come to me, they’re like, I’m going to cut out all sugar or I’m going to do this cleanse or whatever, or, or not even necessarily that extreme, but just like, they don’t have the long-term. I can do this for months on end kind of mindset.
And it worries me because I’m like, okay, when, when you do that, when you set this high bar, it feels great right now, but as you start climbing and you realize you’re getting later in these months, you’re going to feel defeated as you do have that little snack that had the sugar in it or you do eat the solid food or you do eat something that’s not raw or whatever.
[Dani:]
Or if you’ve been white knuckling your way through a whole challenge, right on day 30 or whatever, you’re about to go nuts. Like that’s what’s going to happen. I know even experiences in bodybuilding prep.
Right. And most not all, but most bodybuilders who go through that full prep, we know we are, we know full right. And while this is not sustainable, It doesn’t even matter how much you logic yourself through this, like when the time comes when the rubber hits the road and like that challenge of prep is over.
I would say everybody loses their mind at least a little bit. I’m pretty sure.
[Sawyer:]
I think prep is like another level. Like I don’t, I don’t see anybody being able to do that at least not multiple times without that level of, you know, Specific goal. And that’s, that’s dictated to you.
I think everybody else pretty much everybody else would be like, okay, getting this lean doesn’t make any sense. I feel like crap.
[Dani:]
Right. Sometimes people got to get there to realize that.
[Sawyer:]
That’s true. It depends on the level of your neuroses and all that shit.
[Dani:]
Cause when you look at someone who’s shredded with abs and it looks like they’re strong in the gym and they’re feeling good and they’re having fun. And you’re like, nah, that can’t be that bad. That looks great.
And then if you ever get yourself to that point, Most of us vast majority of us are gonna be like, oh, this sucks. Let’s snap some pictures and get the F out of this.
[Sawyer:]
And yeah, I know. And it’s the sad part is that most people use those pictures to market their stuff or they only ever seen that way. And so I can paint this really unrealistic picture of what people are able to maintain.
And so that’s another one of those things where people, when they first get marketed to or learn about the industry, they don’t understand what a healthy amount of body fat is and what that actually looks like.
[Dani:]
And I, this is just like from a business perspective, this is something that I struggle with all the time because you know, we talk about it. We talk about it all the time on here, how being, you know, super shredded is not a sustainable look, but I still use some of my contest photos to market because it’s almost like you got to lower people in with what they want to be able to give them what they need.
[Sawyer:]
Sometimes that makes a lot of sense actually. And now that you put it that way, it’s like, well, yeah, because people are going to look for that anyway. Like they’re at that phase in their, in their journey where they’re like, I want this.
And if you don’t show up with that, then they’re going somewhere else. And when they go somewhere else, potentially the message is you can achieve this and do this year round. And then they go down that.
[Dani:]
Right. I think it depends on the person who’s doing the marketing and what they’re willing to deliver. And I also, I always want people to know, like, we’ve got the chops.
Like we can do that. We can get you there. Do you want to get there is a much bigger conversation that I think is worth having.
And sometimes the answer is yes, but a lot of times the answer is they think this outcome is going to give them this particular feeling or confidence or whatever. And it’s not so.
[Sawyer:]
That is so true. I tell people that all the time. I’m like, look, I’m not the one that decides your goals for you.
Like, and we, we talk about this all the time too, but like, you know, if, if I know how to get you there and I will get you there, but you, the whole time I’m going to be reminding you like, Hey, just remember why you’re doing this. And if it doesn’t feel like you’re still doing it for the right reasons or that you feel like you’re just kind of holding onto something that doesn’t really serve you. Like we, we can talk about that.
[Dani:]
Yeah.
[Sawyer:]
Like I don’t, I don’t want people trying to impress me with their fitness journey or like make me look good with their before and after photos. I want them to be happy. I want them to feel fulfilled and like they learn something about themselves and about fitness.
Like the, the image, like the way that the world looks at it should be less of a concern. I think than, than a lot of people realize it is fun. I’d rather blow people away, but sorry.
No, it is fun to do that, but it’s not everything.
[Dani:]
I’d so much rather have all my clients get 90% of the way to the goal they thought they wanted, but be able to maintain it and their sanity after we don’t work with each other versus getting a hundred percent of the way there we part ways. And now they have an eating disorder. Like, yeah, absolutely not.
That, that’s my nightmare right there.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. Well, that’s like, you know, to bring it back to like another example, because if somebody is listening to this and they’re just not fitness lingo or fitness educated that much yet that’s like saying, you know, I want to do what’s a good example. Like a normal, Oh, I want to be able to produce all my own food on my home or something like that.
Cause I’ve been learning about that lately. I want to produce all of it this year. Right.
You don’t get there. You find that it’s really hard and you learn a lot about, you know, growing your own food and all this stuff, but you are able to cut your grocery bill in half and permanently versus like just for a year, you like lose your mind and you lose a ton of weight and you don’t produce that much food. You know what I mean?
Like there’s a difference between, you know, seeing things to the end goal because you are just stubborn and you just cannot accept anything less than perfection from yourself versus learning along the way. What’s a more reasonable expectation of yourself and what’s going to be more sustainable longterm and then adapting your goal based on what you’ve learned. And that’s not a failure.
That’s not a concession. That’s just a, you got better, you got smarter, you grew. And so you changed and your goals changed.
[Dani:]
And your body, your body changes like every day for the rest of your life. So, you know, even if you reach the goal, like it’s you’re constantly in flux physically, mentally, your circumstances are always in flux. Like it’s important to be able to kind of flow with those things and like have your principles, have your values, have the things that you are non-negotiable for you.
But I guess that’s kind of what I want to talk about next is like, what are, what are the big rocks? What is the stuff that people should actually be spending their time focusing on, you know?
[Sawyer:]
Yeah.
[Dani:]
I’m curious to hear yours. I mean, mine are very like straightforward, but I’m curious to hear yours.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, I should have written this down beforehand, but I think when it comes to people trying to change their body composition and they’re just starting out and they’re feeling like we’re starting, we’re talking about people starting out. Right.
[Dani:]
It could be anybody, just anybody. Like what’s the stuff, even if they’re like intermediate, just what’s the stuff that’s worth focusing on?
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. The stuff that’s shaken out, I guess I’ll just talk about me. Cause it’s, yeah, that’s kind of my situation.
It’s like the stuff that’s shaken out for me is like being the things that I definitely do is a certain amount of protein a day. And that tends to be, I’m experimenting with a little bit lower, but tends to be at least like 0.7 grams per pound. And I’ve experimented with higher, a little bit lower, but, but at least around there, I usually gravitate towards um, then, then calories that are appropriate for the goal.
And those two things are really the pillars of my nutrition. I don’t mess around too much with supplements. I don’t worry too much about, you know, fiber or whatever, even though those things matter because I find that tracking them is a little too tedious for me.
So I just try to eat healthfully.
[Dani:]
But also you’ve probably built in habits like eating vegetables on a fairly regular basis, you know? And I think that’s part of the reason why there are certain things that you don’t need to track is because it probably was a period where you did track it. And then just kind of, it’s like, you just kind of know, you know, when you’re kind of looking at a dish and you just kind of know like, Oh, that’s 600 calories or something like that.
Like our experiment in the kitchen.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. I was getting flashbacks from that. Yeah.
No, but you’re right.
[Dani:]
Yeah.
[Sawyer:]
If I didn’t have the skills to build a meal around that, those kinds of parameters, then I would have to probably back it down or like do one of your example days of eating or something like that. Right. And that’s we do that for clients when they need that.
But yeah, those are the two big things for nutrition for me. It’s just like a reasonable amount of protein and calories that fit my goals and how you figure that out is just trial and error mostly. I mean, you do, you can make the calculator educated guesses, but like if you’re not adjusting based on what’s actually happening, then I think you need it.
You need a system for that. So those are the big things we’re trying to terms of nutrition. And then on the training side, I’m just doing like bare minimum, like four sets or something per muscle group per week, but like typically way more than that.
And I’m doing more. Yeah. Specialization stuff now.
So.
[Dani:]
For me, I, my first two are the same. I would just, I just flip flop them. Like I would say calories first.
Oh yeah.
[Sawyer:]
This is, those were in no order of importance.
[Dani:]
The calories and protein. Those are, those are the top two. If, if anybody, if any one of my clients is going through something where they have like limited focus or, or they’ve shown like limited adherence thus far to anything more than this, we back it down.
Like just, just hit the calories and protein because that is really, and you can’t put a number on this, so I’m just making it up. But I would say that’s like, that’s like 85% of the way there. I would say to like, to like having the quote unquote, perfect nutrition for training or for losing fat.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense to me.
[Dani:]
And also getting, getting nutrient dense foods in like getting fruits and vegetables. And I think that that’s really important. A lot of people have just habituated that where they don’t have to think about it, but a lot of people have not.
And I think that becomes important. And I also think sometimes, uh, so even, I mean, some of my clients that I’ve been working with for a really long time, like they got this, they know this, like the back of their hand, but sometimes they start to slip in this department and we got to kind of pull it back. Like, okay, this one’s, this one’s important.
[Sawyer:]
Please.
[Dani:]
Let’s make sure we’re getting in some fruits and vegetables. Cause you know, now you’re hungrier, but your calories haven’t changed and you don’t know what’s going on. And it’s like, well, you’re hungrier because you don’t have any volume of food.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. You know, that’s such a good point. Yeah.
I mean, and sometimes it’s interesting with certain people, they have done so many diets and programs and things like that, that I’m just like, okay, even if you could do the macros and you could do things a little bit more specifically, and we could do this better, um, for you to learn like balance more. Um, sometimes I will just start them with the protein and calories because then they can see that works.
[Dani:]
Yeah.
[Sawyer:]
It depends on, on what motivates them. Right. If they’re just like so jaded that they’re like, yeah, we’ll see what happens.
And I’m kind of like, okay, if you’re, if you’re not going to put in the effort to do the macros and do all the things and like, this is, this is becoming a problem for you. We back it down to that. And yeah, they, they find, oh, I can eat, I can have diet sodas all the time and I can do all the, whatever, you know, get away with whatever I want.
But, um, and they’re getting results and that’s exciting. And I think those results will spur in like, well, what else am I, could I get out of this? And then, and then I’ll start to be like, okay, let’s, let’s, uh, be a little bit more specific about, you know, what kind of foods we’re filling this up with.
But I think sometimes the results come first for people and that’s what they need.
[Dani:]
Totally. And Giacomo actually, this is how we got Giacomo on board with flexible dieting back in 2014. He didn’t believe me at all.
And then he ate ice cream every day for his prep and was in the best shape of his life. And then he went like full, if it fits your macros mode for like two years, but it fit his macros and he looked awesome. And, you know, that’s what happened because he was such a clean eater for so long that he like slingshotted in the other direction.
And now, now it’s, it’s, you know, not just now, but shortly thereafter, like it found this, this level place. That’s like the balance that most people I think are striving for.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah.
[Dani:]
Um, and I don’t want to make it sound like the, the, the nuances, the, the details are not, they don’t matter at all. I don’t want to make it sound like that, but I think that it’s, it’s more advanced than people think to just be able to consistently get your calories, your protein and eat some whole foods every day. That sounds like it’s beginner, but it’s not.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. It sounds super mundane and like, Oh, that can’t be the answer. It’s too easy.
It’s too straightforward or whatever, but it literally like, this is what I do long-term. I’m not lying about this. I’m like, this is what keeps me sane.
Like I, I, for a long time did, um, macros. And that was fine. Um, but I just felt like there was a point at which I was like, okay, I don’t need to be filling out this puzzle every day.
My goals are not specific enough that I need to do that. Um, and it’s limiting my ability to, uh, be a little bit more free with my food. So I realized, okay, this isn’t serving me right now.
At one point it really did help me get like in really good shape and focus. But then there was a certain point at which it was like, okay, it’s a little bit too much specificity for what I need. So I’m going to just do the protein and calories thing.
[Dani:]
I’m in the same place. Like I do protein and calories almost exclusively. Even if I was like, okay, I want to lose 10 pounds.
I’d probably still just do protein and calories. Uh, if I wanted to compete, if I wanted to compete again, I would do a full off season year of tracking every single macro and then go into a prep. Um, but that I’m not there.
So I don’t need to do that.
[Sawyer:]
Let me ask you this. What do you think the benefit of doing the off season with the, all the macros would be like that extra, do you think it’d fill that 15% gap? That 85 to 15%.
[Dani:]
I do. I think it’s important because you, for me, you know, this is going to be different for different people. For me, I would want to have the full off season where I maximized as much muscle growth as I could, which I know I’m not actually doing.
If I’m not making sure that I’m eating the right calories, the right protein every day. Um, I’d also throw tracking body weight every day in there too. So if my weight didn’t tick up, I could add, I would know to add calories.
And then when I started my prep, I would know exactly what my maintenance was so that I could take from that the right amount. And I think that it helps to like pre build those habits in because you need that shit on autopilot when you start prep. Um, so that’s, that’s why I, yeah.
[Sawyer:]
I was expecting you to say that you would just do it on prep, but that makes sense. So you’re saying like, no, I need to have done that for a while, understand the mechanisms and be really in the routine and then do it. Okay.
[Dani:]
I’d say I’m like probably 75% optimizing myself for like gains right now, but that’s 25% is a lot to leave on the table. And I know that’s what I’m doing at the moment. And because my goals are not very specific at the moment, like I don’t have any dates or deadlines or numbers I’m trying to hit.
Like that’s fine. I have other things to focus on with that 25% in my life. But if that changed, I know how to move back in that direction, you know, meal timing and stuff like that.
Uh, Supplements all. I mean, I take supplements, but I don’t take all the supplements that I would normally take during prep when I’m not in that 100% mode. Cause it’s just a waste, right?
It’s just a waste of money to buy certain supplements. If I’m not fricking nailing every other thing.
[Sawyer:]
You got that extra couple of percentage points. Yeah. Do you, so in terms of like a, like pyramid or like, isn’t it, wasn’t it 3DMJ that has like the nutrition pyramid and they say like adherence is at the bottom of the pyramid.
Like, first of all, you have to make sure you’re doing it.
[Dani:]
Right.
[Sawyer:]
And then it’s like calories. Then it’s like protein and then it’s whatever else I forget.
[Dani:]
It’s like, yeah, the mealtime supplements is the very tippy top of the pyramid. And then meal timing, carbohydrate timing, that sort of thing is below that. But I mean, even that is such as, I mean, we’re talking like 2%, 3% of a difference.
[Sawyer:]
I will say maybe, maybe this is a good thing to bring up now, actually is that in a deficit, it is nice to have some carbs in your system before you go work out. I’ve noticed that. And maybe some caffeine too.
[Dani:]
Yeah.
[Sawyer:]
Cause I’ve noticed, I noticed that certain points in my, in my cuts, not even preps, I’ve just noticed just decreases in energy that could probably be made up pretty easily with some properly timed times, carbohydrates maybe an hour before I work out hour or two and a little bit of caffeine.
[Dani:]
So yeah, totally. So that’s, that’s what I’m saying. Like, I don’t want to say like, Oh, these don’t matter at all because there is a time and a place for all of these little details.
But when I have somebody who’s coming to me that needs to lose 80 pounds or that’s their goal is to lose 80 pounds. And they’re asking me about betaine HCL. I’m like, bro, I love the questions.
Like I love the nerdy questions. I could talk about it all day, but we are, we are eons from needing to have that conversation at the moment. And I’d much rather just have you come back to me next week and say, I got all my workouts in.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. Like that’s, you know, I think now that I’m, now that you’re giving that example, I think that the thing at the heart of it is that everybody, when they first start, they’re still looking for the magic pill.
[Dani:]
Right.
[Sawyer:]
Instead of the unsexy truth, which is that you just need to be really consistent and have a system that works for you over the longterm. Right. And that’s what we help people do.
And while that’s not as fun as sexy and as sexy as saying, Hey, take this supplement and do keto and wear this waist trainer. And yeah, it feels fun to have all the gear and do all this stuff. It’s like the people who, before they go on a hiking camping trip, buy all the new gear and spend thousands of dollars, you know, trying to make sure they have everything they need.
It’s like anybody who’s been in that mode long enough will tell you, you don’t need all that stuff.
[Dani:]
Right. They come home from that camping trip and realize they didn’t use this, this, this, this, this. Oh my gosh.
[Sawyer:]
Exactly. And so just think of us as the people who are trying to, who are experienced with this and are trying to save you money.
[Dani:]
And frustration.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah.
[Dani:]
Just so much frustration.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. Cause we’ve been down those rabbit holes and we know there’s no magic pills and no magic tricks. And there’s no new products that science has uncovered that it’s going to, I mean, granted, I just caught myself saying that those are amazing.
And if that’s something that you’ve determined is, is the route you want to go, then there’s no shame in that. In fact, I think that’s a good option for a lot of people, but it’s still going to be a long road. It’s not, not going to happen overnight.
[Dani:]
And, and you still need to learn these other things too. If you ever hope to decrease your dosage of these or come off of them completely. And preserve muscle mass.
[Sawyer:]
Yeah. And preserve and not lose muscle mass and build muscle mass. Because people underestimate or they overestimate how much muscle they have and how easy it is to keep it on.
So I think a lot of times people, and I’ve worked with so many people before who were like, Oh, I lost a bunch of weight, but I still look the same. Or the amount of squishiness. I appreciate your honesty.
And yeah, it’s just kind of disappointing when they get there. So they’re like, okay, I’m going to do this. And the people that haven’t the best time working with are the people who have done a bunch of stuff in the past.
[Dani:]
And then they’re freaking sick of it. They are ready for just the right way.
[Sawyer:]
They’re ready to do it the right way. And they’re ready to listen to the pros and they’re like, it’s okay that I didn’t figure out in the past. Like I’m always giving them validation.
Like it’s okay. You’re kind of marketed to all this stuff and you didn’t really want to do the homework to figure out what was right and what was wrong. And it’s really hard to do honestly, in the age of information.
So I just try to get that guilt off of people’s backs and say, let’s just start doing it the right way. It’s going to feel slower. It might feel a little bit frustrating at times, but bring it up to me.
I’ll walk you through it. And you’re just going to look better and better. And that’s going to be your motivation to keep doing it.
[Dani:]
All right, guys, make sure you stay tuned for episode two 11, which I actually think is coming out the week after this one about skinny fat. If you’re interested in that, if you’re looking for any kind of coaching, Sawyer has some spots available and he’s absolutely fantastic. So good at figuring out what makes people tick fill out an application.
I think it’s in the show notes or in the description here on YouTube. And if you have any questions, just shoot them to coach at vegan proteins.com. And you can also follow Sawyer on Instagram at soy boy fitness coaching.
All right, everybody. Thank you so much. My name is Danny.
[Sawyer:]
And my name is Sawyer.
[Dani:]
And we’ll talk to you soon.
