14_ 11.10 PM.mp3

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Dani

Hello and welcome back to vegan Proteins, Muscles by Brussels Radio.

Dani, Giacomo

This is Danni Taylor and I’m Giacomo Marchese.

Dani

And this is our third episode.

Giacomo

Said in today’s episode, we’re going to talk about clean eating and flexible dieting. What are the differences between the both of them is one better than the other. And how you, how do you do it as a vegan?

Dani

This is a really hot topic right now. The clean eating versus flexible dieting or sometimes called iifym, which stands for if it fits your macros and there’s a lot of controversy around it particularly, maybe not particularly, but I definitely see it a lot in the vegan world. So I figured it was worth talking about since we’ve been asked about it quite a bit and what we think of it.

So we’re gonna dig into that a little bit today. I think most of us have heard the term clean eating before. you know, I eat clean, hashtag eat clean on pictures of food. And the thing is, is, is what does it mean to eat clean?

Giacomo

What? Well, what I think clean eating means to most people is basically finding foods that are unprocessed and in the most natural state possible, no additives, no preservatives, you know. So in other words, a candy bar wouldn’t be considered clean eating whereas an apple would be.

Dani

So, I think it’s pretty clear, most people would agree that a candy bar is not what we would consider a clean food, right? But is tofu a clean food?

Giacomo

I, I mean, I should hope so. All tofu really is, is pressed soybeans.

Dani

But a lot of people would say no tofu is not a clean food. And a lot of people would say, well, an organic fair trade candy bar made with evaporated cane juice instead of sugar is a clean food. Whereas a lot of people would say no candy bar is not a clean food no matter what it’s made out of. And I think that’s what we’re getting at here is that clean is really an art, arbitrary word that’s gonna be different from person to person.

Giacomo

Definitely. And I mean, I think we’re, we’re bordering on, you know, looking at things from a purist perspective even more so than clean eating. I mean, yes, you can get more and more purer with the types of foods that you eat.

Dani, Giacomo

But clean eating is, is, but what does that even mean?

Dani

You can get more pure with the foods you eat? Like what does that mean? And I, I know what you’re taught. I know what you mean because I see it constantly in the vegan world, in the fitness world for sure. But way more in the vegan world, like, oh, well, my food is completely raw. It’s never been heated over 100 and 18 degrees. And, I don’t know, it was farmed by angels in the purest fields of Africa.

Like, people take it really, really far and, you know, that’s, that’s fine to each their own. But the, the point really is that clean means nothing. The word clean eating basically means nothing to me. I mean, there are lots of people, lots of people out there who consider chicken breast a clean food. Whereas you and I would say absolutely not.

Giacomo

And I mean, and, and that’s just it really, you know, what, what is considered clean to one person is not for someone else and, you know, to be fair. unfortunately, it leads to a lot of division within the

community. And I think it actually hurts us more than helps us when one person is saying my food is cleaner than yours. So I’m gonna get better results and, and I really don’t, I really don’t think that’s what it should be about.

Dani

But I suppose for the purposes of this particular podcast, when we say clean eating, what we are referring to is whole foods, whole fruits, vegetables, grains, beans, nuts and seeds in their whole state.

Dani, Giacomo

I think we can agree on that, that, you know, clean eating is those foods that you just mentioned and in their most unprocessed state as possible, not necessarily raw, just the whole food.

Dani

Right.

Giacomo

Exactly. Cooked raw, whatever whole food is whole food.

Dani

OK? So that, that’s, that’s where we’re coming from with this conversation right now. But just remember that when someone says clean eating, I eat clean, that means nothing. You have no idea what that means to that individual person. So just a little take away when you hear people say, or if you say that yourself, know that it’s a very, very, very wide spectrum of what people consider clean and not clean.

So just in the wording itself, I’m not a big fan. I don’t like the word clean eating. It also has this weird air of moral superiority. Like you’re eating better food than other people anyway. Side rent, I’ll shut up.

Giacomo

Well, I guess the question is, is eating primarily whole foods as the base of your diet to the point where that’s pretty much all you eat, is that going to yield you better results than say, mixing in some, some other foods into your, your program. like breads or, or a candy bar or whatnot?

Dani

I think that depends on your definition of results. What do you mean by results?

Dani, Giacomo

Well, physique, results.

Giacomo

Well, yeah, let’s, I mean, that’s what I’m going with over here. I mean, we’re, we’re, a fitness fitness show. So, yeah, what, what’s gonna bring you the best physique is is eating clean and only eating clean 100% of the time. Is that going to give you better results than, than eating clean, say 75% of the time.

Dani

I don’t think so. and here’s why not? Because eating nutrient dense whole foods is not good.

Dani, Giacomo

I think we can all agree that you, you should be eating mostly whole nutrient dense foods, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants.

Giacomo

Yeah.

Dani, Giacomo

Your micros are, everyone know that it’s good to get that.

Dani

In a lot of times when you meet these self proclaimed clean eaters, they are of this mindset. I can eat as much or as little as I want to. As long as my food is clean. That’s all that matters.

Giacomo

Well, yeah, calories don’t count because you’re eating clean food, your body will know what to use and what to dispose you can eat as much as you want.

Dani

And that is where I am going to visit very, very clearly. Say I entirely disagree with that statement.

Giacomo

I’m right there with you.

Dani

I think that and as a coach, I see this a lot people come to me. I’m eating clean. I don’t know what’s wrong. Like why am I not getting results from this? This is all I eat and da da da da, they list all these whole foods that are really super healthy and great and it’s just, it’s all in the amounts and it’s not the correct amounts to get to your goals.

Dani, Giacomo

So, no, I don’t think eating 100% clean necessarily yields you better results if you’re not keeping an eye on other things as well, the total amount of food that you eat, the types of foods that you eat?

Giacomo

Are you getting in the right combination of carbohydrates, of protein, of fats of nutrition?

Dani, Giacomo

Are you getting everything you need in timing appropriate?

Giacomo

Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of factors that are involved.

Dani, Giacomo

You can’t just, you can’t just say, well, I eat whole foods so screw everything else.

Giacomo

Yeah, I’m just, I’m just gonna, you know, make a bean shake, have a couple of bananas and call it a day and I’m gonna have the best results.

Dani

Now, that’s not to say that eating a whole foods plant based diet won’t necessarily yield you better results on the inside your overall health. I mean, you did say we’re a fitness show. Let’s not neglect your internal health over just for a better physique. So, yes, I think there are some huge benefits to eating a whole food plant based diet for your overall general health.

And I highly encourage that for health. however, you gotta pay attention to all the factors you meet people. Well, I don’t count calories. Calories don’t matter. Well, no science, science says you’re wrong calories matter whether you’re vegan, not vegan, looking to gain weight, looking to lose weight, whatever they do matter, your metabolism matters.

Dani, Giacomo

your genetics matter, eating clean in and of itself is not the answer, all alone who would benefit from having the goal to just eat clean.

Dani

I do think there are some people who can focus just on that as their primary goal and make great changes to their health. And, you know, people who have not been working out, people who are really out of shape, people who basically live a very unhealthy lifestyle in general, you know, maybe eating fast food several times a week, things like that.

If they make their one goal, I’m going to eat clean. And when I say eat fast food, I eat with reckless abandon, you know, junk all the time. I don’t move very much, you know, are constantly dehydrated. I think if they make the goal of I’m going to focus on eating whole plant based foods.

Dani, Giacomo

They’re going to see great changes in their health, without becoming too obsessive over every gram and every number I, I like how you, you use the word obsessive because that’s something that you have to be mindful about too.

Giacomo

Something that we haven’t discussed at all right now. And it’s, and I think it’s, something that needs to be discussed desperately is, is the mindset of somebody who is looking to become fitter and healthier. And is it a healthy mindset? A lot of the times people who are eating clean are not

necessarily doing it because they’re enjoying it.

They’re doing it because they feel like they have to. And so there’s a part of what they’re doing that becomes sort of restrictive in their mind. you know, I, I really think there has to be AAA balance and, and you have to really understand what you’re doing and enjoy it.

Dani

Yeah. I, I, there’s a meme that I’ve seen a few times on the internet and I think it’s pretty good and it’s calories don’t matter. What do you do when you hit a plateau, eat cleaner. And that, I think that brings up a really good point is when people are eating clean and that’s their, you know, dietary lifestyle or whatever and they do hit a plateau.

What they do is they start cutting out other food groups as a way to eat cleaner. And then they’re left with a very, very limited list of what they can eat. And I know that people think that that’s what vegans are doing in the first place. Right. People will say, well, you already, you cut out all these food groups and it’s like, well, yeah, we do cut out food groups but it’s not necessary. I know a lot of people go vegan for health reasons, but I’ll speak for myself. That’s not why I cut out

meat and dairy and eggs and animal products. It has nothing to do with a diet for. It was my ethical reasons. So that doesn’t even come into play for me. At all. You know, it’s not, it’s not negotiable as far as my diet goes. But when you start doing things like, oh, well, I’m going to cut out soy and I’m going to cut out gluten and I’m going to cut out sugar and then I’m going to cut out fruit and then I’m going to cut out cooked food, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Giacomo

I’m just going to cut out food entirely and just start going on fs.

Dani

Exactly. And, you know, this happens because people think that that’s, those are the steps to take, to get to the goal you want to go to. And, no, it’s not. That’s just restrictive eating. And you get to a point where it’s an eating disorder, you get to a point where it’s just an eating disorder and I’ve seen it happen. I can say that I’ve felt the effects in the past of eating so obsessively clean that it consumed me. and I know you have too and I think a lot of us have been there and it’s not

a very healthy place to be. the physical results were nothing that spectacular. It’s not like you eat cleaner and you suddenly look better. no, it’s when you start focusing on the things that actually matter that your physique starts to change. so those are kind of our thoughts on clean eating, you know, pro whole food plant based for the majority of your diet.

Giacomo

However, if you want a candy bar once in a while, you shouldn’t be punishing yourself for that.

Dani

However, don’t, don’t be obsessive about it and don’t think that eating clean is some sort of miracle because it’s not, it’s, you know, it’s just not, that’s, it’s not this holy grail of anything. Although obviously the benefits of eating, you know, lots of fruits and vegetables and grains and beans and nuts and seeds.

it, it’s, it’s immense, but you’re not gonna get anywhere better by punishing yourself like you said, or restricting yourself that you couldn’t if you had a more flexible approach.

Giacomo

Next, we’re gonna talk about meal plans. What, what should you be eating throughout the day? Should it be the same foods every day? Should you have a specific plan? Should you just go into the day and say I’m going to eat, you know, these types of foods and these specific amounts or do you just kind of wing it? What, what are your thoughts, Danny?

Dani

So I kind of have mixed thoughts about this. I am a big fan of meal plans and, or planning out your food in advance. I’m a big fan of that. I do that with a lot of my clients, you know, and mostly I think that humans are a creature of habit and we will make the best progress eating similarly most of the time. I don’t have any data to back that up. That’s just my observation is that the more of a rhythm you get into the, the closer you get to your goals.

Giacomo

Yeah. I mean, that’s, that’s not just with food, that’s with sleep, that’s with your environment where you train lots of stuff that come into play, not just food.

Dani, Giacomo

I, I definitely agree with you there but I feel like there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of downsides to a meal plan too, especially if it’s poorly made.

Dani

God, you don’t want to be eating the same thing every day that didn’t even meet your nutritional requirements in the first place. That sounds terrible.

Giacomo

Well, my, my experience with meal plans has been really good. Actually, there’s, there’s a lot of reasons why I enjoy having a plan one. It allows me to save an enormous amount of time throughout my day because I know what type of groceries I’m shopping for. I know when they’re going to run out. I know what I need to make when I need to make it. Instead of having to think about what I, I have to eat every single day just to hit my caloric and nutrient requirements.

However, having that sort of preprogrammed meal plan throughout the day. Can it has its downsides too because, well, let’s face it. Yes, we’re creatures of habit and yes, we will potentially breed better results when we are doing the same things consistently over time, including eating the same foods over time. But like anyone else, sometimes we have cravings desires. Sometimes there are social situations, events, gatherings, birthdays, sometimes you don’t have time to

prepare things. Basically, what I’m saying is that there are a lot of factors that just do not fit in to a meal program. Let’s just say that you have a day where I don’t know, there’s 2 ft of snow, snow outside. You can’t go grocery shopping. You don’t have the foods you need, you’re not even home. You’re somewhere, maybe on a snowboarding trip. You need to just make it work for that day meal. You know, you need, you need it out basically.

Dani

And most of the time when somebody has been on a meal plan for a really long time and they encounter one of these situations, they don’t know what to do because they’re so used to this rigidity of a meal plan and they sort of, you know, fly off the handle and just eat whatever they want with reckless abandon.

Giacomo

Right. They freak out, you know, they have their safety net, their meal plan and then all of a sudden it’s not there like, oh, my gosh, what’s going to happen?

Dani

So, and then, you know, a lot of people binge and they just write the whole day off or just don’t eat at all and, you know, I’ve seen all sides of the situation, but like you said, there are a lot of upsides to a sound meal plan. And I think that is crucial too. There are so many coaches out there handing out identical meal plans to each client with the same five foods on them over and over and over and how is that sustainable? Who can really do that?

Giacomo

And it isn’t the end all be all. But before you learn how to work outside of a meal plan, you need to learn how to work inside of a meal plan.

Dani

I think. So. I happen to agree with you. I think meal plans are a great place to start when people are just getting into fitness. and trying to learn about nutrient timing and portion sizes and how to measure your food out, how to count your food, how to track your food, things like that. I think it’s super, super important to learn how to work within that frame. And once you start seeing the results of that, it becomes really motivating. Yeah.

Giacomo

And it, and it gets your body ready, you know, so that eventually you’ll just know like, oh, maybe I can’t be on my meal plan potato.

Dani, Giacomo

But I know I should be having this, these type of foods in these types of amounts because you’ve been doing it for so long that it’s second nature, understanding your pre workout, your post workout, what foods make you feel certain ways that’s crucial.

Dani

You know, you’re on a specific plan for long enough, you feel every little change and you just learn to become very in tune with your body. And I personally think that is super important. But what I think is even more important than that is finding a coach who’s willing to work with you and your lifestyle. If, if you’re going to go to a coach and looking for a meal plan or a meal program, find somebody who’s willing to work with.

I mean, I wrote your meal plans for a long time. Giacomo and, you know, every single week is there, is there any particular food that you’re missing? Is there anything you’re craving? and Giacomo is a super creature of habit. So he was like, no, no, no, I just wanna eat the same things, but I do work with a lot of clients who are like, oh, I kind of like this or I’m getting a little bit bored.

Ok. Well, what do you want? What are you missing? Because there are ways to work in foods that you love into a meal plan and still reach your goals and they don’t have to be 100% clean whole food. You know, I have some people who get, you know, day of cheese on their broccoli or something at lunch when they’re getting kind of sick of their veggies. I manipulate the numbers in a way to work that in for them and then they eat that every day.

And as the people are working with the meal plan and they sort of have that meal plan as a safety net. Then I can start teaching them about other things, the hows and whys of their meal plan. So they can

sort of learn why they’re eating these foods and how they’re affecting their performance and recovery and things like that.

Giacomo

And eventually they, it’s a learning process, you know, you get into it and I, I mean, I can only speak for myself doing a meal plan, day in and day out. I, I’m saying to myself, I’m just not really learning anything. And when am I going to be able to, to figure this, this crap out of my own.

Dani

And, well, a lot of times a coach is gonna give you a meal plan so that you become completely dependent on them. It’s almost like if they don’t teach you why you’re doing what you’re doing, then you’re gonna need that coach for and the goal of any good coach should be that eventually they, they don’t, your client doesn’t really need you anymore.

You’ve taught them enough so that they don’t need to be handheld for the rest of their lives through their athletics, I guess, brings us on to our next topic, which is flexible dieting or what’s called iifym, which stands for, if it fits your macros, what do you think about it, Danny, what is it? Flexible dieting is basically a form of eating where you can eat pretty much whatever you want as long it fits your calorie, carbohydrate fat and protein goals for the day.

And, and you also want to make sure you get your fiber in that number. You know, everybody’s out there looking for the magic macro number. carbs fats and proteins are nicknamed macros for macronutrients. And, you know, I see it online constantly. What are your macros? What are you eating? As though they’re gonna find some magic combination of numbers and that’s going to help them turn into a bikini athlete and that’s not how it works.

Every person’s body and metabolism is different. Some people work better with more carbs. Some people work better with more fats. Some people can just eat way more than other people.

Dani, Giacomo

So every person’s numbers are going to be completely different and as each person changes what they’re doing, their numbers are going to continue to change.

Dani

Right. So, but basically you can eat whatever you want to reach those goals with a few guidelines. you know, post workout meal timing specifically is probably the most important aspect of all of that. But it’s neat because you get to pick whatever foods you want to reach those goals. And basically, I’ve been doing my own version of flexible dieting, although I never called it that for the past eight years or so. When I first got into nutrition and ST bodybuilding and things like

that, I would find these non vegan, very, very meat and dairy, heavy bodybuilding plans and try to veganized the research that I read about those and eat whatever I had to eat to hit those numbers. Not really sure if, what I was doing was right or made sense. But I’ve been, I’ve been doing AAA kind of version of this for a long time. But this is the first, this off season is the first time that I’ve officially just outright done. Flexible dieting.

Giacomo

Yeah, I, I’m, I’m a little newer to it whenever I veganized a bodybuilding plan, I’d eat the same foods that were vegan already and the ones that weren’t, I would. Well, usually it, it was just mainly the protein. So I’d be swapping an animal based product for a vegan product, whether it’s, you know, Seitan tofu or protein shake, for example. So, I’m definitely a little newer to it.

Dani

Yeah. You’ve been doing this since what, like September or so. And Giacomo comes from a very old school bodybuilding mentality. so this is brand new to him and I could tell when he first got into it that he was a little bit afraid, kind of like, afraid that eating certain foods was gonna wreck his physique or, you know, slow him down from getting to his goals.

Giacomo

We just associate with the same foods that you eat over and over again. These are the foods that got me, the body that I was building. So naturally they’re going to be the foods I need to keep on eating to maintain that body and build a better one. Right.

Dani

Right. And I can understand why people would think that, but this goes back to the clean eating mindset of like some foods are clean and some foods are dirty. A K a, some foods are good and some foods are bad, et cetera, et cetera. It builds this really deep dichotomy of morality in the foods that you eat and it’s not really very good for your mindset.

It makes you afraid of food. It’s like you’re a big bodybuilder who’s afraid of food and that’s very, very common. You see that quite a bit people who are, you know, terrified of eating certain quote unquote dirty foods, thinking it’s gonna make them, you know, into a slob. And how has it gone for you so far?

Giacomo

Giacomo, so far so good.

Dani, Giacomo

I, I really don’t have any complaints other than getting used to finding foods that are going to fit my proteins, fats and carbohydrates for the day and figuring out what portions to take them in and, and how much and you’ve been able to increase your food significantly, get leaner, get stronger and eat pizza practically every day every damn day.

Dani

I mean, it’s pizza that’s manipulated very much so to fit his macronutrient goals. but because he gets to eat so much, he finds a way to fit in pizza every day. I’m, I don’t get to eat quite as much. I’m not quite as lucky, but I do get to eat a lot of, you know, I eat a sandwich and pretzels and, I, I make sure to have some little tiny dessert every single night.

It’s, you know, it, it definitely has its upsides. That said a lot of people view flexible dieting and if it fits your macros as the holy grail of dieting and I am not totally sold on that. And here’s why we talk about if it fits your macro, so flexible dieting, there are no bad foods. You are not restricting any food groups at all. It helps get rid of this fear of food. And a lot of times it’s the severe restriction that pushes people to binge.

Right. I think most of us can agree with that. You restrict yourself for so long. Eventually you just lose it and eat everything and flexible dieting sort of eliminates that like, well, screw it. I’m gonna eat everything because you don’t have to ever do that because you’re already allowed to eat anything as long as you make it fit within your numbers.

Giacomo

Right. And that can be hard to do. I mean, don’t get me wrong.

Dani, Giacomo

It’s, it’s not always going to be as glamorous as it sounds just because you can fit ice cream into your diet doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to be able to every single day or every single week depending on what’s going on or it doesn’t necessarily if you can fit a quarter cup of ice cream into your day, that doesn’t necessarily inherently mean, you have the willpower to eat a quarter cup of ice cream and stop.

Giacomo

Well, yeah. Sure, because then you’re taking in, you know, how much worth of your fat for the day. And you have to find the food that is solely made up of carbohydrates and you’re stuck rice cakes or sweet potatoes.

Dani

If you eat junk food all day, you’re gonna be eating super, super calorically dense food. If you eat that all day, you’re gonna be hungry, you’re gonna be hungry because the food is just smaller and at the end of the day, you’re gonna be like, damn it, I’m hungry now, but I ate all my food. And so what this means is even though a lot of people like to talk about flexible dieting, like they’re getting to eat pop tarts and candy and cookies all day. It, it just doesn’t work out that way.

Dani, Giacomo

You are eating mostly broccoli and potatoes maybe once in a while having a pop tart, right?

Dani

It means that if you want to fit in, he’s talking about vegan pop tarts, which are only the un frosted strawberry blueberry and brown sugar as far as I know, just so you guys know, pop tarts are like the favorite as flexible dieting food. And there’s only three varieties that are vegan. That’s what he’s talking about. Not the, not vegan ones anyway.

Back on topic. It means that if you want, if you’re craving something, then you can fit it in. If you work your numbers, if you have a family outing and you don’t want to be eating out of your Tupperware in the side of the room. All miserable. You can work around it. You don’t have to be completely isolated from social events which a lot of people are with their T life and J Mo and I have definitely done the T life thing and I’m sure we will again because in order to fit our macros, especially

when we’re getting ready for a show, we’re going to have to be very, very strict. And that’s sort of the thing is we are very strict. Yeah. Giacomo is gonna, you know, maybe eat a bowl of kettle corn, but he’s gonna weigh it out on the scale and make sure he’s eating exactly what he’s eating.

Now, what a lot of people say when they see what, you know, their macros are supposed to be for that person vegan specifically. Well, how do I get my protein that high? So tell me some of the things that you eat to get your protein as high as it is.

Giacomo

Well, you know, for me, I don’t know if it’s necessarily a fair example. For most people, I, I would say I eat more than the average person. I take in about 3700 calories a day. So, even without any seitan tofu or protein shakes, I’m still gonna get in, I would say about 100 g of protein for the day. Maybe more. And I only really need about 200 g of protein. So, what I’ll do is I’ll add, I’ll add the rest of those foods I just mentioned in either Seitan tofu or protein shake the shakes.

I like after workouts because they’re really convenient. Yeah. I mean, I, I personally enjoy the, the, the vegan meats. I, you know, that’s, isn’t nec necessary. But if, if that’s something you enjoy, I don’t see any harm in gluten or soy personally. As long as you’re not allergic to it. What about you, Danny? What

do you have?

Dani

I love Satan. I eat a lot of Satan. I have Upton’s Naturals, which is my Seitan company. I have Upton’s natural bacon Seitan every morning. Sometimes in the afternoon in, a sandwich.

Giacomo

I don’t think they can stock it enough.

Dani

They don’t, they never have enough of it. I’m constantly buying their last box. Beyond Meat. I’m a big fan of Beyond Meat. Tofurky slices. I like those. We can just buy all the tofurky. Yeah. The post Thanksgiving sales. I, actually, this is terrible because I own vegan proteins.com. I don’t really like protein shakes that much so I use them for convenience sake.

But as far as my, like day to day life. I don’t really supplement with a lot of protein powder. I put some in my protein waffle in the morning. but I don’t really do a whole lot of shakes until I get to a point where I have to drop my carbs and fats a little bit lower and then getting your protein and becomes tougher most of the time.

Giacomo

You don’t, you know, you can go without protein shakes. Yeah, like you said, there’s, there you hit a certain point.

Dani

Although most of the formulated vegan protein powders do have a really good amino acid profile better than Satan and tofu because they have a higher lucine content in general.

Giacomo

and they do have their, their value when you’re at a caloric deficit, preparing your physique.

Dani

But I also even like Giacomo said without any of my mock meats or anything like that. Tofu. Tempe

Seitan. I still easily get like 70 g of protein just from my vegetables and my grains, which I eat a lot of carbs. Right now lentils, I’ve been having a lot of lentils as well, which is the highest protein bean and I really like that. So there are ways, there’s always ways to manipulate your foods to work in the foods that you love. So you don’t feel like you’re deprived.

I am a huge fan of vegan cheeses and I, you know, that’s where does that even fall like going back to the clean eating. Like, would you call that clean? Some of them are just made out of nuts. Is that clean? Is that not? Anyway, you’d be hard pressed to find vegan cheese on a typical bodybuilder meal plan vegan or not vegan. but I’ve been able to work it into my food every single day. I like it.

Giacomo

The vegan cheeses too, that each one is a little different. Some of the vegan cheeses are made up of carbohydrates. Others are higher in fat. You can really switch it up.

Dani

Yeah. So you can, you can work in all sorts of things and it’s just kind of fun. But that said it is like everything else. It’s a learning process.

Giacomo

Yeah. And surprisingly enough, I can’t tell you how many nights where I’ve actually had to find foods that are low in protein because I, my protein is just getting too high for the day in the off season. I mean, I’m sure, you know, when it comes time for contest prep, it’ll be the exact opposite. But right now, yeah.

Dani

so let’s sort of talk about our overall findings between all. So we just talked about three things, clean eating meal plans and flexible dieting. And I know my feelings on this. I imagine yours are gonna be pretty similar.

Giacomo

My overall thoughts. I love the idea of clean eating in theory, in practice. I don’t know if necessarily it’s for me as far as 100%. I like trying to incorporate as many clean foods into my diet.

Dani

Clean, whole foods. We’re talking about whole foods.

Giacomo

I like to, I like to have whole foods be the bulk of my diet. And then I also like to be able to incorporate them into a meal plan, but I don’t like to live my life around a meal plan. I like to know that it’s there and be able to play around with my macros when I want. I try to be really diligent about my meal timing. I think it’s important. However, once again, it’s not the end. All be all if it’s my sister’s birthday party and I have to go, and I have to go, I love Ira if it’s my sister’s birthday

party and, you know, I’ll be there, you know, I’ll most likely wanna have a piece of cake with her. So maybe my meal timing will intentionally be off that day and that’s ok. It does. You know, I don’t, you know, nothing should be so rigid to the po where it controls your life. Whether it’s clean eating, whether it’s flexible dieting or whether it’s meal time. What’s your take on clean eating, flexible dieting and meal plans, Danny.

Dani

It’s pretty much the same as you. I, I eat most, mostly whole foods mostly throughout the day and I do like to loosely plan my food for the day, you know, meal plan style. I’ll put it in my fitness pal the night before or, you know, creature of habit. I have the same breakfast every stink and morning, but then maybe I like to switch up dinner a little bit at night.

But I do have a, a loose meal plan that I stick to in general. And of course, you know, as far as flexible dieting goes, I’ve always been a fan of that. That’s always been my style even during contest prep, if something happened and I ran out of something where I was pretty much eating the same thing every day. But if I ran out of something, I wasn’t like, oh my God, I don’t have my food, I’m gonna die.

I’m never gonna win. You know, which is what you see. A lot of people do. If they get in a situation where they don’t have their food that’s on their meal plan, they just panic. And from a coaching standpoint, I feel the same way and I feel like that’s sort of, the progression is step one, work on eating more whole foods. Step two. Here’s how a meal plan works.

Try this out, get used to it, learn your body. And then while they’re working the plan, you start to teach them why we’re eating this, why we’re doing this. And eventually, well, here you go on Saturday, I want you to hit this number for carbs, proteins, fats and fiber. Give me your my fitness pal name and I will check out what you’re doing, make sure you’re on track, see if you get the hang of it.

And ultimately, eventually you can just hand people a string of numbers and they’re able to, they’re able to do it by themselves. Now, this, you may be like, well, what do you even need a coach for? At that point? Some people don’t, some people don’t need a coach at that point anymore. and that’s awesome. You know, you don’t necessarily want a coach for the rest of your life.

and that’s saying a lot coming from a coach herself. Yeah, I don’t want to feel like I have to hold somebody’s hand forever. Then I don’t feel like I’m really helping them. you know, there are situations getting ready for a show or something. I think it’s always good to have somebody else watching you otherwise you can, you second guess yourself cut too hard, drive yourself crazy looking at yourself.

Absolutely. So that’s a different thing entirely before, like day to day life.

You can learn how to do these sorts of things on your own after a learning period, like anything else. So, those are my overall thoughts if I had to rate them, you know, 123 flexible dieting wins for me, followed by meal plans, sound meal plans from a good coach and then clean eating. you know, I appreciate the idea much like you, but I think trying to eat 100% whole food plant based all the time is, it’s, it’s just not realistic and you can make yourself crazy that way too.

Giacomo

Right? Because then if you ever don’t, if you’re ever having a day where you’re not eating clean, you know, maybe you’re afraid you’re gonna be flying off the handle like you had said earlier. It happens all the time. It happens, you know, or feel like you’re a failure. Oh, I’m not, you know, whole foods and you should never plant based anymore.

Dani

You never feel bad about what you’re eating.

Dani, Giacomo

Yeah, it’s just not, you’re not a bad person.

Giacomo

They should put it this way. There shouldn’t be labels on things.

Dani, Giacomo

You should just be able to eat the way you want to eat and not, not have to, you know, veganism aside because obviously we feel very strong ethically about that.

Dani

outside of that eating, eating a, a cliff builder bar does not make you a bad person and instead of eating an apple and almonds, like that’s just silly. But you see people who have that attitude all the time and it’s not helping anybody and it’s certainly not helping veganism either. So I think that wraps up our thoughts on these three styles of dieting. If you have any questions about this at all, you can get in touch with us on our Facebook page, vegan proteins.

Dani, Giacomo

You can contact us through vegan proteins.com and we are also on Instagram and Twitter at Vegan Proteins.

Giacomo

Today’s product review segment, we’re gonna talk about explore Asian black bean pasta.

Dani

We’ve mentioned this briefly in one of our previous podcasts. It’s a company that makes pasta specifically out of different kinds of beans. And the one that we have, we bought several cases of it at the seed expo in New York. It’s black bean spaghetti. The ingredients are black beans and water.

And somehow this miraculous food has 25 g of protein per serving. 17 g of carbs. Much of that is fiber and it’s very, very low fat. I think it’s like 1 g of fat, maybe even less. I don’t have the package in front of me.

Giacomo

So it’s easy to work it into different types. Most meal programs, actually.

Dani

Absolutely. It’s really, really easy to work in and I run into a lot of vegans like we mentioned earlier, who have a hard time hitting their protein requirements for their goals. And I think this is a fantastic product.

Giacomo

You know, I’m thinking about, I’ll, I’ll use the word al alternatives lightly because nowadays everything is there, there are really no alternatives. We just have options, so many options in the food world. It, it’s reminded me of Sunday, Sunday dinner with my family.

Dani, Giacomo

I think of, you know, you’re just traditional semolina, whole wheat pasta is super Italian. I mean, family is super Italian it’s not pasta, if it’s not semolina or homemade pasta, period.

Giacomo

and, you know, back in the day when there, when there started to be some more options, there was, well, let’s see. I, huh. No. Well, ok. Right. So whole wheat pasta and, and flour pasta. Right. So, those are the first two. But then I think the next one I had tried was the soy, soy pasta. You ever had that before? Oh, not good. Wasn’t, wasn’t a fan?

Honestly, it just kind of tasted cardboard and I mean, I’m picky when it comes to pasta. Then after that, I think the rice pasta started to come out for a while. Not bad. They do take a long time to cook. I’ll tell you that. Not bad. They do have a very, unique texture. Not necessarily, I don’t love it. I don’t hate it. But, but having those other experiences with the soy pasta and then with the rice pasta, I, I didn’t know if I’d be a fan of this black bean stuff.

I, I said, well, you know, it’s not flour or whole wheat pasta. How good could it possibly be? I’ll tell you, I was actually surprised I, I enjoy it. I like, I like the texture. I like the taste.

Dani, Giacomo

So I’m a fan but it’s, it’s still, it doesn’t taste like regular pasta.

Giacomo

No, but I will rate it higher than soy pastas and rice pastas as far as taste and texture goes. My personal preference.

Dani

I haven’t actually made it in a, like an Italian. I haven’t made it in an Italian style dish at all with like a tomato sauce on it. But I have done it with, turned it into like a mac and cheese. It’s sure not the prettiest thing ever because it’s, it’s black, the pasta itself is black but it tastes really, really good.

If you close your eyes, it tastes delicious, super high in protein. It’s great for people who do have soy and, or gluten allergies and still want to get their up and I don’t know what, what it is exactly.

Dani, Giacomo

They do to the beans to make them so high in protein and so low in carbs, they must remove some of the starch, they must remove some of it doesn’t take that long to cook either.

Giacomo

It’s super fast.

Dani, Giacomo

Eight minutes once the water’s boiling, it’s eight minutes because like the rice pasta is like, what, 20 minutes to cook.

Dani

And we got it. Like I said, we got it at the seed Expo in New York. The explore Asian booth was there. They have other styles too. Like mung bean, soybean. They, but I don’t know if it’s the same as the soy pasta fried before.

Giacomo

Probably not.

Dani

But I’ve also seen it in Whole Foods in the ethnic food aisle. It has like the Thai food and the Indian food and it’s, it’s really, really good. Little bit. I mean, it’s pricier than regular pasta. But if you’re buying pasta and whole food anyway, it’s probably on par with everything else. And yeah, it gets a thumbs up for me.

Giacomo

Same here. Moving on to our Q and A segment for today.

Dani, Giacomo

We have a question from at Scottish vegan on Twitter and they ask, I’d like to know what are some healthy snack foods for post workout sessions, healthy snack foods for post workout sessions.

Giacomo

So what should you be eating, post workout?

Dani

The most important, the most important thing to get post workout is protein. it stimulates muscle protein synthesis almost immediately after your workout, which is when your muscle are all torn down

and you know, looking to repair themselves. So protein is the most important thing. Secondly, being carbohydrates to replenish your glycogen that you have burned through more or less.

espe particularly if you’re looking to build muscle. So looking for something high carb, high protein, low infect. This is the most beneficial time to eat a higher glycemic carb. So the white flowers, the sugary things if you’re going to eat it, this is the best time of day to do it because you’re much more insulin sensitive and it’s going to do you the most good then as opposed to later is going to use it right away, but it’s bad to eat it at a different time.

It’s the most beneficial time to eat it. Is then though, right? So some fast foods that I have, some of my clients eat are, bagel sandwiches with Beyond Meat in them. That’s something that you can pack ahead of time. Just a bagel with some mustard and lettuce and tomato and a few slices of Beyond meat in it.

Dani, Giacomo

People seem to really like that if you are running around on the go, I usually do a bagel with some jam and protein shake.

Giacomo

Personally, I find that people really like bagel, simple and easy.

Dani

If you’re looking for like a prepackage snack, I would say, I think that the primal jerky strips are really, really good fast forms of mostly protein. They don’t need to be refrigerated. You can keep them in your car if you have to. A lot of people like to say like, oh, I have almonds. I keep almonds around, but post workout is not the best time be having almonds just because they are so high in fat.

Great food. Wonderful. Love them. Just not the best post workout food. beans, rice and beans is always a great one. I love rice and beans. After a workout, the fiber in the beans does slow down the digestion of it a little bit, but it is high in protein, high in phytonutrients and high in carbs.

Giacomo

So low fat, low fiber, high protein, high carb basically.

Dani

So you can get really creative. I do like to keep a couple packets of, like individual packets of protein powder in my gym bag in case whatever happens and I can’t get home for a long while.

Dani, Giacomo

Bagels are potato really, really good.

Dani

Yeah. But that’s not really a snack.

Dani, Giacomo

Like, you can’t just pick up a white potato somewhere and just bite into it.

Giacomo

Like a fruit.

Dani

Fruit is really, really good. You know, the, the fastest easiest thing I can think of is an apple or a banana raisins dates. Yeah, those are all very high, but it’s the protein that makes it difficult. so, you know, keep a couple packets of protein powder in your bag with a shaker bottle. So you can just shake it up with water, rice and beans. You can get packages of rice and beans that are precooked and you can just eat them right out of the bag and those are really, really good.

Giacomo

So you have to eat them up.

Dani, Giacomo

But, you know, there’s, they’re still, they’re still good.

Dani

Not that we know from experience from eating them in the road. but those would be our, our big ones in a pinch. Like in a real pinch. You could have a, a cliff builder bar or one of those pro bars that are the 20 g of protein. One, it’s not ideal because they are higher in fat than I think your post workout meal should be. But they’re fairly high in protein.

Pretty high glycemic from the pretty high glycemic carbs from the sugar that’s in them and you can find the Clif bars even like in a convenience store. So, but the healthiest out of all those options, healthy. I’m saying in quotation marks would be a piece of fruit and protein shake.

Dani, Giacomo

That’s the fastest and the most accessible anywhere.

Giacomo

Basically.

Dani

OK. This question is kind of long. So I find myself in a bit of a conundrum. I have been doing a bit of research as I have been feeling that I have become weaker as a result of being on a vegan diet for six months compared to my omnivorous diet. Previous to this, I have found that in numerous studies and the running theme in the bodybuilding world is that typically testosterone levels are lower in vegans, specifically free testosterone levels, acid leucine cholesterol levels,

saturated fat levels and creatine levels all seem to be at play when it comes to testosterone and strength. And that is something vegan diets lack. I have been eating more than enough calories, 3500 getting adequate proteins and fats. I’m 591 85 pounds and definitely look like I can lift more than I actually can. The only thing I hate more than exploiting animals lives for my personal gain is feeling that I am sacrificing strength for something. What do I do?

Giacomo

That? That is a long question. Hm. Well, you know, I think the this is actually a, a pretty common question. One that I see often and have seen often over the years and I think it’s as simple as, I don’t think it’s necessarily that it’s a vegan diet that, that’s causing challenge. It’s the fact that, that you’re making a change.

Right. And whenever you change something you’re either going to, well, you’re figuring out what to do. So you’re either gonna wind up doing all the wrong things or just not do enough of anything. And I mean, you know, where was I, I mean, were, were they eating 3500 calories before?

Dani

I don’t know, I have no idea. I mean, based based on reading this question, this guy obviously knows a little something, he knows what he’s talking about. But what I have to say to this is there are absolutely ways, you know, he says lucine cholesterol saturated fat and test and creatine all come to

play with testosterone. That’s true. Most people in body building in general supplement with creatine, right?

So if you can do that as a vegan and we do most of us supplement with leucine usually in the form of branch chain amino acids which clean machine makes. And that’s a great product and we use a lot of it have that on our website. So, Leucine and creatine right there and then saturated, I mean, fats in general play a really important role in hormone production.

And he says he’s eating adequate amounts of fats but he doesn’t really say what that is. or what types. Yeah, coconut oil is great. eh, epa DH A oils are really, really great for helping, you know, maintain healthy hormone levels,

Giacomo

which will help with, with muscle protein synthesis will help prevent muscle breakdown.

Dani

You know, creatine is a super important supplement, I think, and I think for building muscle, building strength, just cell volum.

Giacomo

And I think what, what needs to be stated is, you know, yes, there is creatine found in animal products. And if you take a vegan versus an Omnivore and, and compare the creatinine levels without supplementing with creatine, the Omnivore will have slightly higher levels of creatine in their system. But that’s that difference is very nominal.

It’s any person who is bodybuilding that is looking for for results should consider supplementing with creatine. And as when, when you get to that point where you’re saturating your, your Yeah, with, with with supplementing, it makes no difference whether you’re a vegan or an Omnivore, you, they’re going to be exactly the same to 100%.

Dani

You cannot get more than 100.

Giacomo

Exactly. It’s not gonna make any difference.

Dani

And leucine is the most important amino acid for muscle protein synthesis, which is why vegans and non vegans like supplement with branch chain amino acids.

Dani, Giacomo

It helps in preventing muscle wasting and it helps in building muscle, the playing field is very level on branch chain amino acid supplementation and creatine supplementation.

Dani

So I think when it comes to high levels of performance in sports or in body building or even just in the gym for your own personal goals, supplementation while not necessary can be very, very helpful. And, and that’s going to be the same whether you’re vegan or you’re not vegan as vegans. We do Giacomo and I do supplement with branch chain amino acids mostly for the Lucian content.

Creatine, DH A epa oils in the form of capsules by Dava nutrition because they’re usually almost always made out of fish. There’s not a lot of vegan, DH A epa supplements out there. We do have one on our, in our web store. Other things that we supplement with that are specific to a vegan diet. Nothing.

Giacomo

BR epa and creatine. Those are, those are the big three.

Dani

I’d say nothing that we take specifically just because we’re vegan. But I mean B 12.

Dani, Giacomo

But I feel like whether you’re vegan or you’re not vegan, I feel like everybody should be taking B 12, but the same thing goes for, for D that’s not, but that’s not really his question.

Dani

His question is about free testosterone. And of course, there’s, there’s lots of things that can cause drops in testosterone even just hitting a certain age. And he doesn’t mention how old he is. You know, it’s, it’s always worth getting your levels tested, talking to a doctor about maybe why this is happening. It could be, it could even be something as simple as stress in your life.

Dani, Giacomo

So it could be a lot of things I wouldn’t necessarily point at the vegan diet and I would look into implementing with leucine and creatine and perhaps bumping up your saturated fats and your DH A and EPA intake being, being fit and being active is very taxing on your body and it’s not healthy per se.

Giacomo

So it to push your body to that extreme. Exactly. It’s not healthy per se to push your body to the extreme. So if you’re going to be an active athlete and, and going to live a fit lifestyle, that’s where supplementation can come into play and make sure that, that you can be able to perform the way, the way that you’re looking to.

Dani

All right, everybody. So thanks for tuning in. This concludes our third episode of Muscles by Brussels radio brought to you by vegan proteins. This is Danni and my name is Giacomo and we’re signing out. You can reach us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook or Vegan proteins.com. Thanks so much.

Giacomo

Thanks again.